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Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 14, 2022 07:28AM

I never paid a whole lot of attention to 60-61 engines.
I removed the 80 HP 3 Speed in my 61 in favor of a 62 102 4 speed back in the day and it's just been sitting.
I've got the shrouding off my 60 80 HP PG and find it interesting with the heat riser tubes, oil temp instead of head temp and oil pressure taken from the lifter gallery.

I was looking for 3 cylinder/rod/piston assemblies for my 63 VD FC engine that had a valve seat blow to smithereens and figured a 61 PG 80 HP engine would be a good candidate to offer them up. My buddy had the 61 4-door and decided it was too rusty to fix up and the engine has been out of the car for 20 years at least.
When we took this 61 apart I was surprised to find full fin cylinders. It has no provision for oil temp in the crankcase and a pipe plug in the oil pressure hole. The 3783854 head has a temp switch. In the Tech Guide that head is listed as 61 but 140 CI not 145. The crankcase number is T09092 so I assume it was built the week of September 9, 1960. It's interesting that the 61 engine seems to have evolved rather than just a flat change. Same as the 60 I worked on recently, there's copper head gaskets.
What is further interesting to me is the 3/4" square casted place in the head I think had the heat riser tube in 60, no hole in 61 and the automatic choke rod hole in 62. I should compare the 3 when I get a chance.
I think I'm going to take apart another engine for 3 cylinder/rod/piston assemblies and save this set of full fins for boring oversize some day. I've got another set at the Machine Shop now for a .060 Egge piston project that's probably getting 102 heads and an Early turbo or 102 cam.
It's sort of fun to be goofing with Early engines instead of Lates for a change. I like to say that a 60 4-door 80 HP PG is the original and still the best just to bother people but maybe it's true.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: The Stig ()
Date: January 14, 2022 06:25PM

I had a '60 before but it had a late 110 engine in it under the 60 shrouds.

My new '60 project has its original engine I just tore down. Indeed its fun to see the differences. I'm still weighing which way to go on it. I have a spare set of ready to go 140 deep seat heads here. Was kinda thinking of adding extra runners to the stock '60 air cleaner. Try to make a 140 look as stock '60 as possible. Or I might just overhaul it as is and go as stock as possible for fun.

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 14, 2022 06:38PM

I found something else interesting on the 61 engine built in September of 60. The heads are 3783854. The Tech Guide lists them as 61 but 140 CI not 145. The interesting thing is they have exhaust valve rotators. The engine has full fin cylinders. Nothing in the Z crankcase code or head listing in the Tech Guide says anything about being for an FC. When did FCs come along anyway? Later than the week of September 9th? I suppose someone could have added valve rotators but who would do that on a 4-door PG car? It's too bad the heads are sized for the little single valve springs.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 14, 2022 09:30PM

Can't you cut the pockets for the larger springs?

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 138 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: January 15, 2022 05:17AM

Yup, Just like this!



Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: January 15, 2022 05:24AM

One of the other internal changes for the 102, it has the large valve springs and the larger Spyder/late rods

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 15, 2022 06:41AM

I'm not throwing away 61 heads in case it becomes economically viable. Same with opening up 64 heads to accept 65 cylinders. It's possible to do but all adds up on the bottom line.
I scrapped a lot of Early stuff including 102s when I was only thinking about the future of my personal Corvairs. There's still a certain amount of "I can't save it all" considerations today and probably more in the future as I wind down. Seems like only yesterday I was winding up.
I've always thought of Early engine developments in changes by year and it's interesting to come across some overlaps. I've always held full fin cylinders in high regard.
With a sporty outlook I've been guilty of snobbery regarding 80 HP engines but I'm now seeing their charm.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: RexJohnson ()
Date: January 15, 2022 12:20PM

The parts book lists '60-'63 rods all (exc. turbo) so the 102's should have the smaller rods.

RJ tools
Salem,Oregon

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: January 15, 2022 12:41PM

RexJohnson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The parts book lists '60-'63 rods all (exc. turbo) so the 102's should have the smaller rods.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Every 102 I have taken apart has the larger rods and I have taken apart quite a few over the years.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: RexJohnson ()
Date: January 15, 2022 01:04PM

The few that I have didn't have them.

RJ tools
Salem,Oregon

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 16, 2022 06:00AM

I have to look at the VD 102 FC. I got started taking apart the 61 engines looking for cylinder/piston/rod assembles for it. One side has the pistons annihilated and I just assumed a 102 would have normal EM rods. I started taking it apart a year ago and I honestly don't remember how far I got. You'd think I would have noticed different rods but I'm not always on my game.
I got started on this thread because a 61 engine had 60 cylinders but I suppose new things were phased in on the line throughout Corvair production. My 63 Van has a 64 style shifter. Some 64 turbo engines had a 891 cam. Some 65 140 PGs had a 891 cam. Different turbo cam and carburetor jetting sometime in 63.
I heard from someone with a May of 1959 engine that may have been a prototype.
My 63 VD has regular 3813516 102 heads with exhaust valve rotators added.
I still wonder how valve rotators got onto my Z September 1960 car engine.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: January 16, 2022 06:28AM

The full fin cylinders were not discontinued until March 1961 and had been upgraded before the end of the 60 model year. There are two kinds for 140 cid and 145 cid. The later ones had 3-9/16 bore and 145 cid pistons. Part number 3789576. I found two sets nos and used them with four Clark full fin cylinders. Virtually indistinguishable except for the stroke cutout on the Clark repro.

Crawford

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 17, 2022 12:30AM

The late FC manual shifter started mid '63. I have several '63s with the late shifter including an 8-door.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 138 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 17, 2022 05:26AM

The other 61 engine I'm taking apart is January and doesn't have full fin cylinders.
It's interesting that there's some 145 3 9/16 full fins. I should measure my September ones although they're probably destined to be bored sometime.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 17, 2022 06:11PM

Crawford gave the wrong measurement for 145 CI cylinders and then I quoted him.
It's 3 7/16 not 3 9/16. The earlier 60 140 CI cylinders are 3 3/8.
I measured the full fin cylinders from my 61 engine built in September 60 engine and they're 3 7/16.
Besides the copper head gaskets I also found copper cylinder base gaskets in both 61 engines I took apart.

Ken was correct, I did find the heavier Spyder type rods in my 63 VD 102 FC engine.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: caroseiii ()
Date: January 17, 2022 07:52PM

Sorry about that. Misremembering is dangerous, so double check. 3-7/16 for 145 and 164 is correct.

Crawford

C.A. Rose
Metairie, LA
1962 Spyders

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 27, 2022 06:05AM

This isn't that Early but I took apart a 62 or 63 turbo engine and found copper looking rather than gray looking rod and main bearings. They're not worn through like some grooved ones I've seen. They're stamped GM 500 on the back. The crankshaft has the Nitrited symbol on the end.

I went over the camshaft with a magnifying glass but it has no part number. The lift is comparable to the 63 in Bob Helt's book but I haven't checked the duration yet.

According to the chart the 62 used the 102 cam. The 63 turbo only cam is said to have less lift but more duration. Is that more of a turbo thing? Would the 63 turbo cam work well in a .060 over 102 with a true 9/1 compression ratio? Any use in having even more compression with those little valves? I think it will be sporting a Big Single exhaust and 2-barrel center mount carburetor for something different since I have it.

I realize I'm going O/T from the Earliest Engines topic but I didn't think I should start a whole new one. I started out taking apart two 61 engines and then the Spyder engine got in my way too.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: tkalp ()
Date: January 27, 2022 08:12AM

Mark Welte of the MCCA did some research on the "golden rods" and published his findings in the March 2021 issue of the FlatSix Journal, available at: [www.corvair.org]

When I pulled the power pack from my 27,000 mile '61 Greenbrier to replace a bad flywheel, I also pulled the shrouds for cleaning. It has the full fin cylinders and '60 style exhaust logs. It was a mid-year production date.

T Kalp
Wichita, KS

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: Brizo ()
Date: January 27, 2022 06:47PM

vairmech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RexJohnson Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > The parts book lists '60-'63 rods all (exc. turbo) so the 102's should have the smaller rods.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Every 102 I have taken apart has the larger rods and I have taken apart quite a few over the years.

I just had the engine out of a '64 this week because it was smoking a lot. Found out it had Total Seal rings on original pistons that had worn out top ring lands. The crankcase code and head numbers said it was a 102HP '63 engine... .and it had small rods...but after all these years and the way parts get switched around, it proves nothing.

Dan Brizendine, Circle City Corvairs
'64 8 door Greenbrier, +.060, stroked 1/4", 188 ci, 140 PG. "In beautiful Wanamaker Indiana...with one stop light and 5 pizza shops"

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Re: Earliest Engines
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 28, 2022 06:00AM

I'm familiar with the rods that have been dipped in a copper colored something to add weight.
What I'm wondering about is main and rod bearings with a copper colored rather than gray colored wear surface. They're stamped GM 500 on the back. They were in a 62 or 63 turbo engine with a Nitrited crankshaft. They are all a uniform color and it's not like they're worn through the bearing material into a copper intermediate layer.
This engine also has copper cylinder base gaskets and copper head gaskets. I suppose they could have been changed but they are Std stock pistons. How long did they use copper gaskets in the factory? I was first surprised to see them in a 60.
I'm finding so many good lower end Early engine parts that I might take apart a stuck 84 HP to get some heads and put something together although I've got a half dozen 102 heads as well. I'm having fun with this Early stuff although maybe I have a weird definition of the word fun.
I keep telling my buddy with the El Corvino 140 that he's going to be surprised and embarrassed when I blow past him with a hot rod 102. A little Corvair garage trash talk.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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