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Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 02, 2021 11:56AM

Here's my setup:

I run a Devils Own high pressure (200psi pump) single stage system that turns on at 3-3.5psi and sprays through two (2) DO1 1gph nozzles placed at the crossover mounting flanges [green line in graph]. I started with two DO2 2gph nozzles but that caused bucking due to too much spray when running in boost. Now i can see why very clearly [red line in graph]. I use 50/50 Boost juice.

The blue-dotted line shows "optimum" flow vs PSI as calculated on DevilsOwn web site for 2.7L engine. The gray dashed line shows flow with 1.5gph nozzles (ordered) starting @ 6.5psi = should be better. It is also very clear that a progressive controller will allow for more optimum results so my piggy bank will be raided soon to get a progressive set up working.

What's your setup? I will add your data points to the graph and we can see what works and what no work. cool smiley If you want to remain anonymous send me a PM.

let's keep it simple - Low/High pressure? How many nozzles? What size nozzles? Single stage or progressive? Single stage start spray psi or progressive start/full psi? What % Methanol spray?




Ken
'62 Spyder
Florida


Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: edconnolly ()
Date: September 02, 2021 02:32PM

Connect with jjohnsonjo , who uses an Edelbrock Vara-Jection analog system, which I will try.

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: AlecCarlson ()
Date: September 02, 2021 04:24PM

I am running Snow's Stage 2 Progressive injection system. The pump maxes out at 300 PSI. The pump controller is set to start at 2 PSI boost and ramp up to max output at 8 PSI boost. I have a single nozzle installed on the turbo output pipe. I'll have to check on the nozzle size - I don't remember right now. I am running the stock Carter so my boost is limited. This fall I'll be installing a DCOE 45 so I should see higher boost numbers. I'm not running meth - It's hard to get in my part of the country. I'm running a denatured alcohol / water mix (50/50 by weight, not volume).

Alec
Dahlonega, GA
1965 Corsa Convertible Turbo 4-Speed
Restoration "In Progress"

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 03, 2021 04:44AM

Ken, nice graph and info. Have not as of yet got the new engine in but will keep an eye on this thread. Great work as usual! thumbs up

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo
67' UltraVan 211 "Violet"
NFCC, UMCC
Grand Island, NY

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: September 03, 2021 07:26AM

I have a home made set up using a non progressive Snow controller and pump, single nozzle mounted in the turbocharger discharge, Devil's Own fuel cell with a fabricated bracket that bolts to the spare tire mounting bracket holes. I figured out the detonation point and have it turn on just before that. I have my carburetor calibrated a little lean but with the alcohol on I have a/f in the 11:1 range. I have been slowly bumping the total advance and it just keeps picking up.
Car has run very low 15's at 93 mph in the 1/4 making 13 lbs of boost (measured on a calibrated gauge) This is with the YH on a long block using ALL GM parts except lifters.
I will have to go back and check the nozzle size as I installed it in 2014. I always spray straight methanol or straight denatured from Home Depot if I can't get methanol.

Lee J



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2021 07:31AM by gnvair.

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 03, 2021 11:28AM

Gents, thanks for the replies...keep them coming. So far we can see that both non-progressive and progressive can be successful when set up properly.

My new nozzles arrived today so my first approach will be to keep it non progressive. Devils Own instructions say "As a general starting point, start off with the boost switch adjusted to ½ of your max boost."
With the HSR45 tuned and getting full boost runs at 16psi, I will set the system to turn on at 8psi. Test how it likes that with some full boost runs and watch the Safeguard for knock retard activity. Based on the graph, it looks to be a pretty good fit for non progressive.




Ken
'62 Spyder
Florida


Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: jazzworkerbee ()
Date: September 04, 2021 07:52AM

This to thread will come in handy when I build my 180 block in a year or two.

Daniel Atkinson
Tacoma, WA
65 Turbocharged Corsa

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Date: September 04, 2021 03:46PM

Good stuff, Ken. Thanks for sharing.

My plan is to put E85 in front of the rotors on the twin-screw. I’ll do some steady state testing on the dyno and note knock threshold at RPM and a testing array with incremental flow and check knock threshold with each test, with an added output of torque measurement for each data point.

This should allow a very good surface map. The tough part is controlling engine temp for each point for fair comparison.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're unique, just like everyone else...

Johnny B
Central WI

Wife's '68, 3.0L, twin-screw compressor and fuel injected in the works...

Project Pressurized Pancake


Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: September 05, 2021 11:32AM

I am running a vintage Edelbrock Vara-jection and have been for years. 30% meth. I have been using meth dry gas for years, which is nearly pure meth anyway. Why, ACE had a close out at the end of winter a few years ago. When I did the math it was cheaper than buying Meth by the gallon, so a grabbed a couple of cases. This is a low pressure system, 38 PSI and I shoot it in at the air cleaner. I was having a ping just prior to boost on hot days, so I started it at 3" of vacuum and 1500 RPMs. It is very adjustable for + or - inches and uses a MAP type sensor. Also its rated at C.C. per minute so I converted that to GPM for this tread. It starts at .9 and increases with manifold pressure and RPMs to 2.6 if the charts are accurate.

I have read this may damage the compressor. No problems for years of use, the water gets pretty beat up blasting through the carb and then turns to mist or steam when it hits the 50,000 RPM plus blades.

Many guys say these systems don't work because the water changes to steam before it even exits the turbo. That may be true as the crossover pipe is cooler to the touch after a hard run. Even if it is steam it will continue to absorb heat and convert it to super heated steam during combustion and will stay that way until it hits the turbo. Power generating electrical turbines are power by superheated steam and it has some strange properties. (another discussion)

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 06, 2021 10:41AM

J.O.'s system just proves that there is not just one "correct" answer. I will try to work those system parameters into the graphs. My single stage is similar to the one Lee J. is running except for the "straight methanol" part that is. LOL

Testing 9/6: Started the day with the 2x 1.5gph nozzles installed and set to turn on 7psi. Started getting some bogging at 12-13psi so adjusted to turn on at 7.6 and less bogging... best results today turn on at 7.9psi and smooth acceleration up to 15psi. Ambient temp was 76*-82* during these runs. Next steps: Add some timing back in above 9psi by delaying the retard steps.

Future upgrade: Progressive Controller. IMHO - A single stage non-progressive system has it's tradeoffs with selection of nozzle size and what setting for turn-on. Turn-on too early and the resulting volume of meth/alcohol injected is too much. Turn-on too late and the advantages of meth/alcohol are diminished. Ultimately, It's about the volume and trying to match that "ideal" curve. Adjusting the timing to take advantage of the meth/alcohol is a bonus.

Graph now shows the curve for [future] progressive system using 2gph nozzles with start at 3psi (15% rate) and full flow at 17psi (100% rate).




Ken
'62 Spyder
Florida


Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: September 06, 2021 11:54AM

gnvair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a home made set up using a non progressive Snow controller and pump, single nozzle mounted in the turbocharger discharge, Devil's Own fuel cell with a fabricated bracket that bolts to the spare tire mounting bracket holes. I figured out the detonation point and have it turn on just before that. I have my carburetor calibrated a little lean but with the alcohol on I have a/f in the 11:1 range. I have been slowly bumping the total advance and it just keeps picking up.
> Car has run very low 15's at 93 mph in the 1/4 making 13 lbs of boost (measured on a calibrated gauge) This is with the YH on a long block using ALL GM parts except lifters.
> I will have to go back and check the nozzle size as I installed it in 2014. I always spray straight methanol or straight denatured from Home Depot if I can't get methanol.

Lee are you saying 13 PSI or 13 inches. Not saying you are or are not, just a question. I can get 11 PSI on a cool day with a YH. Ceramic coated exhaust, roller tipped 1:6 rockers and a tightly clearanced compressor. What is your total advance at full boost. Maybe 100% meth has something to do with it.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: September 06, 2021 12:23PM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gnvair Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > I have a home made set up using a non progressive Snow controller and pump, single nozzle mounted in the turbocharger discharge, Devil's Own fuel cell with a fabricated bracket that bolts to the spare tire mounting bracket holes. I figured out the detonation point and have it turn on just before that. I have my carburetor calibrated a little lean but with the alcohol on I have a/f in the 11:1 range. I have been slowly bumping the total advance and it just keeps picking up.
> > Car has run very low 15's at 93 mph in the 1/4 making 13 lbs of boost (measured on a calibrated gauge) This is with the YH on a long block using ALL GM parts except lifters.
> > I will have to go back and check the nozzle size as I installed it in 2014. I always spray straight methanol or straight denatured from Home Depot if I can't get methanol.
>
> Lee are you saying 13 PSI or 13 inches. Not saying you are or are not, just a question. I can get 11 PSI on a cool day with a YH. Ceramic coated exhaust, roller tipped 1:6 rockers and a tightly clearanced compressor. What is your total advance at full boost. Maybe 100% meth has something to do with it.

Not doubting the psi he’s getting with a stock carb and turbo. Keep in mind the turbos were built with some tolerances that have very limited adjustability, there are only two shims available. I’ve got a crown hsg and with a stock carb, wrapped pipe and manifolds, and have seen as high as 17psi on a completely stock motor, on a digital and analog gauge. Dialing the boost back to 10 psi made more power. Same turbo/carb on a 3.1 motor with big tube 140 heads and custom exhaust never went over 13psi, and made substantially more power.

IMO, the restrictive stock exhaust system and terrible flow of stock turbo heads, and cam timing etc, contributes to the very high numbers I’ve seen, power was better at lower boost. Lee’s car has a much better flowing exhaust and waste gate, and very well may have a turbo that was made at tighter tolerances, his ET shows it’s running very well, and it’s a stock motor. Kevin Nash recently posted a video showing power increases at lower boost pressures with larger diameter exhaust and downpipes, and no internal mods.

Just my .02 cents

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: September 06, 2021 12:50PM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gnvair Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > I have a home made set up using a non progressive Snow controller and pump, single nozzle mounted in the turbocharger discharge, Devil's Own fuel cell with a fabricated bracket that bolts to the spare tire mounting bracket holes. I figured out the detonation point and have it turn on just before that. I have my carburetor calibrated a little lean but with the alcohol on I have a/f in the 11:1 range. I have been slowly bumping the total advance and it just keeps picking up.
> > Car has run very low 15's at 93 mph in the 1/4 making 13 lbs of boost (measured on a calibrated gauge) This is with the YH on a long block using ALL GM parts except lifters.
> > I will have to go back and check the nozzle size as I installed it in 2014. I always spray straight methanol or straight denatured from Home Depot if I can't get methanol.
>
> Lee are you saying 13 PSI or 13 inches. Not saying you are or are not, just a question. I can get 11 PSI on a cool day with a YH. Ceramic coated exhaust, roller tipped 1:6 rockers and a tightly clearanced compressor. What is your total advance at full boost. Maybe 100% meth has something to do with it.

Yes, it was 13 psi of boost (not inched).
My exhaust is all 304 stainless. The only thing coated is the turbine housing.
Total advance under full boost was about 20 degrees last I messed with it. I started low and kept bumping it up a degree at a time. I preferred to sneak up on it. But I know from other vehicles I have tuned that there is a ton of horse power and torque picked up with timing especially with alcohol/methanol. Downside is too much can be catastrophic.

Lee J

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: September 06, 2021 01:02PM

zarfnober Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jjohnsonjo Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > gnvair Wrote:
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > I have a home made set up using a non progressive Snow controller and pump, single nozzle mounted in the turbocharger discharge, Devil's Own fuel cell with a fabricated bracket that bolts to the spare tire mounting bracket holes. I figured out the detonation point and have it turn on just before that. I have my carburetor calibrated a little lean but with the alcohol on I have a/f in the 11:1 range. I have been slowly bumping the total advance and it just keeps picking up.
> > > Car has run very low 15's at 93 mph in the 1/4 making 13 lbs of boost (measured on a calibrated gauge) This is with the YH on a long block using ALL GM parts except lifters.
> > > I will have to go back and check the nozzle size as I installed it in 2014. I always spray straight methanol or straight denatured from Home Depot if I can't get methanol.
> >
> > Lee are you saying 13 PSI or 13 inches. Not saying you are or are not, just a question. I can get 11 PSI on a cool day with a YH. Ceramic coated exhaust, roller tipped 1:6 rockers and a tightly clearanced compressor. What is your total advance at full boost. Maybe 100% meth has something to do with it.
>
> Not doubting the psi he’s getting with a stock carb and turbo. Keep in mind the turbos were built with some tolerances that have very limited adjustability, there are only two shims available. I’ve got a crown hsg and with a stock carb, wrapped pipe and manifolds, and have seen as high as 17psi on a completely stock motor, on a digital and analog gauge. Dialing the boost back to 10 psi made more power. Same turbo/carb on a 3.1 motor with big tube 140 heads and custom exhaust never went over 13psi, and made substantially more power.
>
> IMO, the restrictive stock exhaust system and terrible flow of stock turbo heads, and cam timing etc, contributes to the very high numbers I’ve seen, power was better at lower boost. Lee’s car has a much better flowing exhaust and waste gate, and very well may have a turbo that was made at tighter tolerances, his ET shows it’s running very well, and it’s a stock motor. Kevin Nash recently posted a video showing power increases at lower boost pressures with larger diameter exhaust and downpipes, and no internal mods.
>
> Just my .02 cents

Yes, my car has 140 exhaust tubes, stock 140 exhaust manifolds and a cross over the size of the stock 140 U pipes. My inlet pipe to the turbo is also a little bit larger than stock. Current heads are 62-63 turbo heads with mild port work with stock GM valves. The larger exhaust IMHO is one of the ingredients that helps it run as well as it does.
As a side note....The larger down pipe is an interesting thing as I have have seen Grand Nationals run deep into the lower reaches of the 9 second et range with a 3" down pipe. At 3700 lbs vehicle weight that equates to around 900 horse power....I'm mentioning this to give an example of power and weight and the size of the pipe. A 3" pipe can support a LOT more power than a Corvair is capable of producing.
But it should also be noted that a larger down pipe (or outlet pipe) does not affect or hurt driveability.
For those that aren't aware, There were/are turbine housings for the stock style TRW/Rajay turbochargers that permit fitting a 3" down pipe although they use a round 4 bolt flange pattern. You just have to find one that fits your B or F style turbine.

Lee J

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: September 07, 2021 05:51AM

About 30 years ago someone more knowledgeable than explained how to tighten up the compressor and where to get the shims. I don't remember the exact number, but its about 1/2 the shop manual minimum. This has a bigger affect on turbos with a YH due to the strangle hold it has on turbo inlet as compared to open with no restriction. This first thing I noticed was that boost started sooner.

I don't recommend this unless you are comfortable with what you are doing. It can lead to an expensive mistake.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: 67vair ()
Date: September 09, 2021 05:33AM

My set-up is home brew and falls into the "crude but effective"category. 90 PSI RV water pump, 2 Snow 60 ml/min nozzles, hobbs pressure switch and assorted fittings and tubing. The engine is a blow-through 9.25 compression low boost(6 psi)140 using 2 carbs and aggressive timing and the intent was detonation control rather than power optimization. I was getting slight non-boost detonation so I start the spray at 1 psi and it's a single stage system. I started with 50/50 water meth but went to straight water and noticed no difference in detonation control. Total cost was about $125.

69 Monza, owned since 1975 daily driver
67 Monza, owned since 1981, being restored

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 09, 2021 07:19AM

67vair Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My set-up is home brew and falls into the "crude but effective" category. 90 PSI RV water pump, 2 Snow 60 ml/min nozzles, hobbs pressure switch

@67vair, I would never have called it "crude" sir. smoking smiley

What i have found after reviewing the information posted over on TheSamba.com (lots of high performance air cooled VW's ) has basically reinforced what we have read here. Some stick with Hobbs switch for activation while others like the progressive controller. Some mix their own water meth mixture, some use off-the shelf fluids and some just use 100% water or 100% meth. There are also examples of 2-stage systems that use smaller nozzle at low boost and additional nozzle at higher boost which begins to approach a progressive system but still allows for various nozzle sizes.

The selection of system parts (pump pressure, nozzle size, activation mechanism, water meth mixture) depend on what your objective is (detonation control, increased power, etc,). The common caution in all these approaches is don't spray too much too soon or you can bog and sputter (effectively pushing your AFR into the super rich region).

Now that i have some good examples, I will graph the flow rate curves and post those for reference.

Ken

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: nirvairna ()
Date: September 09, 2021 04:58PM

I found this write up by some motorcycle guys to have some interesting info

RB Racing on Water Injection

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: September 10, 2021 06:01AM

nirvairna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I found this write up by some motorcycle guys to have some interesting info
>
> RB Racing on Water Injection

I might be wrong, but I don’t think this guy is making these pumps anymore.

Re: Methanol/Water Injection: What's your setup?
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 10, 2021 06:11AM

@AlecCarlson

Here is the graph for your system. Curves show different nozzle sizes based on your 2psi-8psi settings. I also added a curve using a 2.5gph nozzle set for 2psi start 13psi full spray. Although you might not hit 13psi boost levels, the curve is a better "fit" when using the progressive controller. Once that bad boy Weber gets your max boost up that is worth considering depending on your ability to manage ignition timing and driving style.



Ken
'62 Spyder
Florida


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