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What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 11, 2021 06:45AM

I have done the few little jobs on my 65 Monza 110 PG and whilst putting the engine back in lining it up on the bell housing and doing up the bolts something went pop, it felt like the splines just adjusted and found their place, but now it's back together it is not selecting gears. When I start the engine the wheels spin as they should but I cannot select any gears. Help!

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 11, 2021 07:22AM

I did remove the engine leaving PG in the car but loosened the mounting bolts leaving it at an angle, would this have pulled the cable/ linkages etc

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: February 11, 2021 07:28AM

I suspect the innermost spline shaft was not properly inserted in the torque converter.

The inner shaft drives the front pump in the transmission and it's held in the pump's three-corner drive washer with tiny snap rings. A little pressure on the shaft is all it takes to dislodge the snap ring, move the shaft forward, and create a "no-go".

The only good news is the problem can be repaired externally by pulling the front pump cover and resetting the drive washer and snap rings. Not fun but it's do-able.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2021 07:29AM by cnicol.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 11, 2021 08:46AM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suspect the innermost spline shaft was not properly inserted in the torque converter.
>
> The inner shaft drives the front pump in the transmission and it's held in the pump's three-corner drive washer with tiny snap rings. A little pressure on the shaft is all it takes to dislodge the snap ring, move the shaft forward, and create a "no-go".
>
> The only good news is the problem can be repaired externally by pulling the front pump cover and resetting the drive washer and snap rings. Not fun but it's do-able.

Thanks I’ll check it out.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 11, 2021 11:50AM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suspect the innermost spline shaft was not properly inserted in the torque converter.
>
> The inner shaft drives the front pump in the transmission and it's held in the pump's three-corner drive washer with tiny snap rings. A little pressure on the shaft is all it takes to dislodge the snap ring, move the shaft forward, and create a "no-go".
>
> The only good news is the problem can be repaired externally by pulling the front pump cover and resetting the drive washer and snap rings. Not fun but it's do-able.

Do I need to drop the engine out again to do this. It’s the first time I have really gone this deep into a Corvair.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: February 11, 2021 12:42PM

Tony wrote: "Do I need to drop the engine out again to do this. It’s the first time I have really gone this deep into a Corvair"

Craig replies: No, just the front of the transmission. But first, test the pump pressure at the easily accessible pressure test port. (First picture) Note: Your transmission probably doesn't have cooler lines. Just ignore them in this photo.

If there's no pressure, you found the problem. Should be 52-64 PSI at idle with vacuum modulator connected and working. Could be as high as 105 PSI if the modulator is disconnected or not working.

Second picture: Trans lowered for front pump service.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 15, 2021 05:53AM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tony wrote: "Do I need to drop the engine out again to do this. It’s the first time I have really gone this deep into a Corvair"
>
> Craig replies: No, just the front of the transmission. But first, test the pump pressure at the easily accessible pressure test port. (First picture) Note: Your transmission probably doesn't have cooler lines. Just ignore them in this photo.
>
> If there's no pressure, you found the problem. Should be 52-64 PSI at idle with vacuum modulator connected and working. Could be as high as 105 PSI if the modulator is disconnected or not working.
>
> Second picture: Trans lowered for front pump service.


Tried this pumped up immediately 90 PSI with a little rev to get it going from cold.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: February 15, 2021 05:59AM

Tony Trans Am Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
It's back together it is not selecting gears. When I start the engine the wheels spin as they should but I cannot select any gears. Help!

Do this mean the selector lever will not move, or that when put in R D or L, nothing happens?

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 15, 2021 06:12AM

Wagon Master Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tony Trans Am Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> It's back together it is not selecting gears. When I start the engine the wheels spin as they should but I cannot select any gears. Help!
>
> Do this mean the selector lever will not move, or that when put in R D or L, nothing happens?


Hi, lever moves but nothing is selecting. I have checked the cable and that is moving ok.
Should I drop the PG pan?

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: February 15, 2021 07:19AM

Dumb questions first,
1. Did the car drive and transmission shift properly before the engine removal?
2. Did you put the three flex plate to torque converter bolts back in?
3. Was the shifting cable removed during your engine removal? ( If yes, then definitely pull the pan and confirm proper installation.)

If it drove and functioned properly before the engine removal, your issue has to center around the "POP" you heard when mating the engine to the transaxle. Removing the engine again would be my next step. I would also recommend removal of entire drive train "Power Pack" this time as a unit.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 15, 2021 07:32AM

Wagon Master Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dumb questions first,
> 1. Did the car drive and transmission shift properly before the engine removal?
> 2. Did you put the three flex plate to torque converter bolts back in?
> 3. Was the shifting cable removed during your engine removal? ( If yes, then definitely pull the pan and confirm proper installation.)
>
> If it drove and functioned properly before the engine removal, your issue has to center around the "POP" you heard when mating the engine to the transaxle. Removing the engine again would be my next step. I would also recommend removal of entire drive train "Power Pack" this time as a unit.


Hi,
Yes all functioned properly before removal.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: February 15, 2021 07:51AM

May I again suggest testing pump pressure before you disassemble anything?

The test port is 1/8" pipe thread and fully exposed at the transmission support bracket. All you need is a little pressure gauge and a short pipe nipple. No need to speculate or remove anything.

The issue of pushing the pump drive shaft forward and losing front pump drive is pretty common in my experience. The symptoms you cite perfectly fit this failure.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2021 07:53AM by cnicol.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: February 15, 2021 07:56AM


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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 15, 2021 08:42AM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> May I again suggest testing pump pressure before you disassemble anything?
>
> The test port is 1/8" pipe thread and fully exposed at the transmission support bracket. All you need is a little pressure gauge and a short pipe nipple. No need to speculate or remove anything.
>
> The issue of pushing the pump drive shaft forward and losing front pump drive is pretty common in my experience. The symptoms you cite perfectly fit this failure.


Hi,
I did the pressure test, went up straight away, a little rev took it to 90psi.
I’m still going to pull front plate to be sure also, just a nice 2 poster ramp installed, so hopefully will make life a bit easier.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: February 15, 2021 08:59AM

Tony wrote: "Hi,
I did the pressure test, went up straight away, a little rev took it to 90psi.
I’m still going to pull front plate to be sure also, just a nice 2 poster ramp installed, so hopefully will make life a bit easier."

OK, If that's the case *I* would pull the pan next and see if the shift cable is moving the manual valve. (Manual valve = Shifter)

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 17, 2021 02:37PM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tony wrote: "Do I need to drop the engine out again to do this. It’s the first time I have really gone this deep into a Corvair"
>
> Craig replies: No, just the front of the transmission. But first, test the pump pressure at the easily accessible pressure test port. (First picture) Note: Your transmission probably doesn't have cooler lines. Just ignore them in this photo.
>
> If there's no pressure, you found the problem. Should be 52-64 PSI at idle with vacuum modulator connected and working. Could be as high as 105 PSI if the modulator is disconnected or not working.
>
> Second picture: Trans lowered for front pump service.

Going to attempt this, this weekend any instructions or tips greatly appreciated.
Is your second pic of the shaft and washer exposed the transmission in situ in the car? What am I undoing, am I removing that cross member or working round it etc?

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Timothy Shortle ()
Date: February 17, 2021 03:04PM

Craig suggests removing the pan NEXT and watch what happens with the "ball" and the shift valve (manual valve) when someone is moving the shifter on the dash.

I second that suggestion.

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 18, 2021 06:43AM

Timothy Shortle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Craig suggests removing the pan NEXT and watch what happens with the "ball" and the shift valve (manual valve) when someone is moving the shifter on the dash.
>
> I second that suggestion.

Checked, all good thumbs up

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: February 18, 2021 06:58AM

Tony wrote:

Going to attempt this, this weekend any instructions or tips greatly appreciated.
Is your second pic of the shaft and washer exposed the transmission in situ in the car? What am I undoing, am I removing that cross member or working round it etc?

Craig replies: > "Second picture: Trans lowered for front pump service."

i.e. Powerpack supported by jack, transmission support removed, powerpack lowered to clear suspension cross-member (visible at top/right).

Front of transmission cleaned, especially perimeter and cover pulled off for inspection. Pulling the cover is a bit of a trick because of o-ring friction. I would have a spare o-ring ready if you're worried about reusing the o-ring.

HOWEVER: If the pump pressure is good and the shifter is moving the manual valve properly, it's beginning to sound like a transmission problem. Are you sure about the manual valve? Was it positioning to "drive" in sync with the shift lever?

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: What have I done!?
Posted by: Tony Trans Am ()
Date: February 20, 2021 06:08AM

cnicol Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tony wrote:
>
> Going to attempt this, this weekend any instructions or tips greatly appreciated.
> Is your second pic of the shaft and washer exposed the transmission in situ in the car? What am I undoing, am I removing that cross member or working round it etc?
>
> Craig replies: > "Second picture: Trans lowered for front pump service."
>
> i.e. Powerpack supported by jack, transmission support removed, powerpack lowered to clear suspension cross-member (visible at top/right).
>
> Front of transmission cleaned, especially perimeter and cover pulled off for inspection. Pulling the cover is a bit of a trick because of o-ring friction. I would have a spare o-ring ready if you're worried about reusing the o-ring.
>
> HOWEVER: If the pump pressure is good and the shifter is moving the manual valve properly, it's beginning to sound like a transmission problem. Are you sure about the manual valve? Was it positioning to "drive" in sync with the shift lever?

Ok, Snap ring was off but I have it. What next? is the shaft pertruding too much? Do I need to push back in.

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