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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: February 10, 2021 07:34PM

Maybe get another plastic container and only partially fill it and cap it and set that on the Honda also for a control, just to see if pressure has something to do with it. Water should be from the same source, as pure water definitely has a different freezing point than water with dissolved solids in it like calcium, iron, salt, ect. Any dissolved solids lower the freezing point, and so does pressure... the higher the pressure the lower the freezing point.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: alphasud ()
Date: February 10, 2021 10:10PM

I have another curveball to add to the discussion. I have had the same phenomenon with jugs of water from the market. I buy about 10 gallons of distilled water at a time. Left them sit in the back of the truck overnight in freezing weather. Only some of the water bottles froze. The rest had no ice crystals. I assumed it was because distilled water has no minerals to kick off the formation of crystals and that some of the bottles must have had impurities making them freeze. Now I’m not sure after reading your experience. I would be tempted to uncap and check the temperature to see if it’s below freezing. Maybe inserting the probe will kick it off.

David North Idaho
1965 Corsa Turbo converted to 140
1971 Super Beetle with 2.5L Subaru engine
1965 Corsa mid engine project
1973 Mercedes 280 project

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: CoCoCo ()
Date: February 10, 2021 11:56PM

how about an infrared thermometer test? Not sure if it's sensing the water or the outside of the jug, but I would think they'd both be close to the same thing anyway.
But it's sure a curiosity!

Paul

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: February 11, 2021 05:00AM

Put the water jug in the same spot as the frozen tarp water for a fair test. Any other placement and you are changing the rules/parameters of the game.

"Windchill" only comes into effect when you have something with moisture on it, like your body, to evaporate making a cooling effect. Your tarp water has open moisture and is subject to windchill! Also, your tarp water is effectively divided into smaller sections with the leaves in it.

Most of the answers explaining what's happening are above if you want to see it.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: isucorvair ()
Date: February 11, 2021 05:21AM

> BUT, it is parked under a canopy, and out of any Sun light, even light filtered through clouds.


I can SEE the milkjug in the photo, therefore it is getting plenty of sunlight/ solar radiation even if filtered, on the hood of a darker colored car.


Eric P.
DeWitt, IA

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: February 11, 2021 09:50AM

With all the down time waiting for warmer weather ----

If you are into technical/scientific history written in understandable terms this is an interesting book about COLD. You'll never look at your refrigerator the same after you read it.

See [www.kirkusreviews.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2021 09:52AM by 66vairman.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 11, 2021 12:14PM

Well, the temps have continued to stay below freezing.
I moved the jug yesterday evening over to the wing of the Honda so there is zero radiation from a solar heated dark-colored trunk.
Cold air could flow totally around it, and I checked it at 5:00 AM this morning.
Not a single ice crystal was in it.


Ken,
I have moved the jug down, next to the tarp water.
We'll see if anything changes.

Eric,
Even if the jug were warmed during the day, with our current sub-freezing temps, it would immediately begin to lose that minuscule amount of thermal energy, as soon as the sun set. (quite early up here.)
By morning it should have hit freezing.
As for the dark colored hood, I moved the jug off of that vehicle yesterday evening, and placed it on the fiberglass wing of my Honda.
Cool air ALL the way around it. Still didn't freeze.

66vairman,
While it looks like a very informative book, it sounds like it would be as exciting a read to slog through as Great Expectations, or Atlas Shrugged.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

Attachments:

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: February 11, 2021 12:24PM

Put out a jug half full of water.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 11, 2021 12:26PM

RobertC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Put out a jug half full of water.


I don't have anymore empty Milk jugs.
Tuesday was garbage day, and I threw them all away. sad smiley

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: February 11, 2021 12:43PM

American Mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RobertC Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Put out a jug half full of water.
>
>
> I don't have anymore empty Milk jugs.
> Tuesday was garbage day, and I threw them all away. sad smiley

A plastic water bottle will work - even a reusable one that you carry with you.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 11, 2021 01:04PM

Okay, just for you Robert.
I started a new experiment.
THREE Yogurt tubs.
On the dark hood. (For now)
One Full of water, with a lid on it.
One Half-Full of water with a lid on it.
One Half-Full of water with no lid.
I'll set a timer and check them on regular intervals through out the rest of the day.

Unfortunately, I do not have an infrared thermometer as Paul suggested. sad smiley

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 11, 2021 06:15PM

So, I checked them an hour ago.
The open container is beginning to ice up.
The two covered tubs are still liquid, no ice at all.
The Milk jug which has now been at ground level all day, in the sheltered shade of the boat, is still fully liquid also.
BUT!
There is a Tropicana Orange Juice jug sitting on the rail of the porch, it is much thicker plastic than the milk jug, and gets direct sunlight during a portion of the day, it is freezing right up!
Go Figure!

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: The Stig ()
Date: February 11, 2021 06:53PM

Blankets, how do they work?

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 11, 2021 07:51PM

The Stig Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Blankets, how do they work?


Blankets work, because they hold in the HEAT that your body IS GENERATING.
No heat is being generated by the cold tap water.

Well, so much for the theories about solar ovens in the trunk, radiant thermal energy off of a dark surface, and such.
ALL Three yogurt tubs are freezing up!
The covered ones took a little longer to get started but they all have ice in them now, and it is growing.
As is the Tropicana OJ jug.
The Milk jug on the other hand, is still down at ground level next to the tarp ice, and has not grown so much as a single sliver of ice in it. confused smiley

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: February 11, 2021 08:08PM

Sort of a lame experiment, but you could dump a couple inches of water out of the full jug and see if it will freeze then.

Sort of prove that it takes a colder temperature to freeze the full jug.

Had various plastic containers (not full)of water develop ice when temperature dropped into the 20’s while camping. Some thicker than what you are using.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 11, 2021 08:17PM

Did the government provide the water or do you have a well?

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: February 11, 2021 08:21PM

American Mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Stig Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Blankets, how do they work?
>
>
> Blankets work, because they hold in the HEAT that your body IS GENERATING.
> No heat is being generated by the cold tap water.

Not quite true... the tap water, being above freezing (probably 45- 50 degrees right now) has "more heat" in it than when it is outside, so if it is insulated well enough, would take longer to "give up" its heat to the outside than if it was less well insulated. However, insulation differences between the various containers and temperature differences between where the containers have been placed dont explain whats going on with the milk jug. One last thing to try, if you havent already... perhaps crack the lid on the milk jug enough for it to relieve a bit of pressure. It has to have "slightly" more pressure in it than the other containers, for 2 reasons, one is that being filled all the way to the top then sealed, its own weight is pushing a bit more and cant relieve it, the other is the water would try and expand slightly as it gets close to the freezing point, and would also provide some extra pressure. Cant think of anything else to explain it, the extra volume of the milk jug compared to the other containers, by itself shouldnt do it, because the milk jug has been outside quite a bit longer than the other containers.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 11, 2021 08:35PM

Just because a particular jug of water is at a higher temperature does not mean it is generating heat.
This has been going on for days and the high temperature hasn't been over freezing.
I'm thinking the government supplied water isn't really water.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 11, 2021 10:07PM

Kevin, I realize that that even cold water fresh out of the tap is considerably warmer than the outside temps.
But, when I have used the term tap-water, I was meaning in the sense of being domestic supply, rather than from a rain-source.
As you noted, that jug has been outside, exposed to the elements for over a week.
I cracked the lid on the jug, as suggested, and it actually took in some air, rather than expelled any, so it was NOT under any pressure.
The bubble at the top is now larger than it was before.

Joel, our water supply here is provided to us, through a treaty agreement with Canada.
I would love to blame it on the water, but the water in the yogurt tubs, and the Tropicana jug, are all freezing up, and they are from the same source.
It is only the Milk jug that is staying liquid even after four days of subfreezing temps.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 12, 2021 07:13AM

I'm thinking you filled them on different days. They have different formulas for the "water" depending on what they want to do to you that day.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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