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OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:01PM

Can someone please explain the physics behind this?
We have had Below freezing temperatures here for the last 48+ hours.
No SUN, gray overcast skies, for several days now.
Highs in the upper 20's.
20 mph winds, with the "Feels Like" temps reported in the mid-teens.
I have a tarp under the bow of my boat, that had some puddled water in it.
It is frozen solid, and has been since shortly after the temps fell.
I have a jug of simple tap water, that is in a used milk jug, it has been sitting on the hood of my coupe, for several days now, and it hasn't froze.
Not even partially!
What is going on?
How does that work?

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:24PM

Looks like bottle is full; plus the water is insulated.

If it did freeze, it would probably split the bottle.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: aircooledairhead ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:31PM

2 Thoughts,

1. Tarp is on ground which is cold and partially shaded. Air is coldest at ground level (cold air is denser than warm air). Also the water in the tarp is shallow and spread over a wider cold area and subject to the evaporative cooling of the wind. These factors result in frozen water.

2. The jug of water on the hood is about a yard off the ground and much of the water is away from the outer surface of the jug. The water is not affected nearly as much by the wind as it is in a sealed container. The car looks to be a dark color, and even with cloudy skies will reflect some heat as some solar radiation passes through the clouds. This combination is just enough to keep it from freezing.

Fred Gillam, southern SC coast
Former Corvairs from teens and 20's.
3 65 Corsa 180 convertibles
63 Spyder
66 Monza 110 PG, "Moldo"
65 Corsa 140
Currently helping son with 65 Monza 140 4-spd coupe

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:35PM

Robert,
Yes, the jug is full.
It is not pressurized, it is just plain ole tap water, I put in it.
I would expect it might burst, if it does freeze.
But that wouldn't be a loss, it is only a used milk jug.
I actually can not even remember why I filled it up, I had it in the other car, and took it out because I didn't want it freezing overnight and rupturing all over the floor.
Only, I guess that shouldn't have been a concern.
I am just perplexed as to why it hasn't froze yet?
Almost three days in sub-freezing temps, and not even one ice crystal in there!

Fred,
You are correct about the color of the car.
BUT, it is parked under a canopy, and out of any Sun light, even light filtered through clouds.
If it is still managing to receive some solar radiation, then I should still see ice form once the Sun goes down.
But it has been ice free, even in the mornings!
As for the temperatures, I am reading upper twenties on my porch, which is at least 3 feet higher than the height of the car.
So the freezing temps are not just at ground level.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2021 05:42PM by American Mel.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:40PM

From what I have read / remember(?): water expands slightly when it freezes.

I have no clue about all the physics formulas to prove any of this.

My guess is that if the bottler was less than full there would be some ice in it.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:45PM

Robert,
Maybe, but I don't see how that makes a difference,
I have seen Milk freeze in those jugs, and it just pushes out those circles on the sides, there is room for expansion in those jugs.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:46PM

I think, in this case, because it's in the open air?

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:51PM

MattNall Wrote:
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> I think, in this case, because it's in the open air?


But the open-air has been in the upper 20's ALL day!
Even the insulating effects of plastic have to fail to overcome those kinds of temps at some point.
If not, then we'd all be wrapping our houses in old milk jugs! grinning smiley

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:54PM

"Highs in the upper 20's."
It should be frozen. Something odd going on there.
The jug being full doesn't matter. Water under pressure only makes a very slight difference in the freezing temperature.
Wind will make it freeze faster.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:57PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Highs in the upper 20's."
> It should be frozen. Something odd going on there.
> The jug being full doesn't matter. Water under pressure only makes a very slight difference in the freezing temperature.
> Wind will make it freeze faster.


That is what I thought, too.
It has me baffled, but then I am not as highly edumacated as some folks on here.
That is why I reached out the the CCF Brain-Trust.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:01PM

I've been curious because our chicken water hasn't frozen and we've had several days below freezing. I'm guessing mine is from heat in the ground from being in the 70s last week.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: azdave ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:17PM

We have many nights in Phoenix when the temps stay well above freezing but water puddles that are up off the ground (like on a tarp/car cover) and auto windshields are covered in frost in the morning. How can that be? Objects loose heat via thermal radiation to the sky and can end up cooler than the surrounding air.

Night Sky Radiative Cooling is another name for it and could partially explain why the tarp water freezes but not a big jug. I'm sure the jug doesn't freeze during the day because it is gaining just enough heat to beat the iceman overnight. Either that or the jug is full of moonshine.

[en.wikipedia.org]

I'm not a scientist but I play one on the internet.

Dave W. / Gilbert Arizona
65 Corsa 140/4
66 Corsa 140/4
66 Corsa 140/4 w/factory A/C
66 Corsa 455 Toro V8
65 Monza Convertible 110/4
66 Monza Convertible 140/4 A/C
65 Monza 4DR 140/PG w/factory A/C
65 Monza 4DR EJ20T/5






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2021 06:18PM by azdave.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:19PM

Our ground is now frozen.
That wind is Biting cold!
I an sure there is a name for it, but I don't know what you call it, I have little two inch tall blooms of ice that have sprouted from the dirt, as the water in the ground has frozen and expanded upward.
Dave, I am beginning to wonder about that water. eye popping smiley
Our local supply is piped down from Canada! eye rolling smiley

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2021 06:22PM by American Mel.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:21PM

"because it is gaining just enough heat"
From where? He said the temperature during the day is in the 20s.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:22PM

It might be that the the simple fact that the milk jug is sitting on the trunk, which could possibly be acting like a green house because there air kinda sorta trapped in there vs the open puddle of water. Try taking the milk jug and put it on the roof of your car and crack the windows a little and see if that causes the milk jug to freeze. It may be something else but thats what I would be thinking of first. Heating and cooling is weird, and heating and cooling of water is even weirder... heat transfer gets more efficient the bigger the temperature differential is, and gets less efficient when the temperature difference is small.
The other thing, the amount of dissolved solids can effect the freezing point quite a bit. How "still" the water is or has been can change the freezing point. Sometimes all that is necessary for liquid water to go to solid when it is below freezing is to agitate it!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:28PM

Kevin, you are correct.
That is known as "Supercooling", but it usually requires extremely pure water.
I simply used plain ole tap water in a rinsed out (not washed) milk jug.
I was curious though and did shake it up earlier, but it made no difference.
I will test your trunk heat theory, and move the jug to the rear wing on the Honda.
That should have sufficient air flow around it.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: The Stig ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:29PM

Wow A-Mel should write ICP songs.

[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2021 06:30PM by The Stig.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:35PM

Well, we'll see what happens now.
I moved the jug, to the Honda, and while I was out there freezing my tail off, it was starting to snow!
Hmmm.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: 2ragtops ()
Date: February 10, 2021 07:06PM

It's not Physics guys, it's is simple

Corvairs are "HOT" cars

Bob Bauer

Show-Me Corvairs

1966 Monza Convert 140 P/G with A/C, plastic wheel with tele-column am-fm posi-traction
1966 Corsa Convert 180 wood wheel tele-column am-fm sport steering posi-traction
1965 Corsa Coupe Crown V8 temporarily red lined for repair
House Springs, Missouri

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: February 10, 2021 07:16PM

aircooledairhead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 Thoughts,
>
> 1. Tarp is on ground which is cold and partially shaded. Air is coldest at ground level (cold air is denser than warm air). Also the water in the tarp is shallow and spread over a wider cold area and subject to the evaporative cooling of the wind. These factors result in frozen water.
>
> 2. The jug of water on the hood is about a yard off the ground and much of the water is away from the outer surface of the jug. The water is not affected nearly as much by the wind as it is in a sealed container. The car looks to be a dark color, and even with cloudy skies will reflect some heat as some solar radiation passes through the clouds. This combination is just enough to keep it from freezing.

That a pretty good explanation Fred. Exposed water evaporates (even at very cold temperatures) and that lowers the surface temperature at the air water boundary and ice typically forms on that surface first. You can do the experiment with your ice cube tray.

Depending on radiation around the jug, the water in the jug is cooling or heating faster where it touches the plastic jug and that means the water is circulating in the jug trying to equalize water temperature. Moving water can be colder than 32F and NOT become ice. Put the jug in the freezer at a CONSTANT temperature with no outside light (radiation), no vibrations, and it will turn to ice.

Also most water is not pure, but contains elements that alter when it will freeze.

Liquid water DOES contract as it gets colder, but as it turns into a solid (ice) it expands.

I worked with thermodynamic/physics people. There is a good reason those folks make good money!!

BTW - Here is question on the basic pilots test: What causes wind (movement of air around the globe)?

The answer is the uneven heating and cooling of the earths surface.

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