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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 14, 2021 11:36AM

It's all moot now.
It is still snowing, but the temps have gone above freezing.
should be turning to rain soon.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 14, 2021 12:08PM

16 degrees here. You guys stole our heat!

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: Chilly Willy ()
Date: February 14, 2021 05:58PM

I’m glad I don’t live in a place that can freeze a gallon jug of water on my patio winking smiley




The Corvair, Keeping Nader Notorious winking smiley


Will
Northern California

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: The Stig ()
Date: February 14, 2021 06:31PM

Since its 16° here..... I put a gallon jug out for A Mel overnight.


What the F#$k is a clock?

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: vairsUPnorth ()
Date: February 14, 2021 08:03PM

Hello All,

I have been following this thread for a while, wondering if it will be figured out. What Mel might be observing is the phenomenon of undercooling and nucleation. As a materials scientist I deal with this all the time, particularly in the field of foundry for which I am employed, but the solidification of metals is a bit different than water.

Mel, if your milk jug was washed out thoroughly and water in it is very pure, there simply may be no heterogeneous nuclei large enough (contaminates, particles, dust, etc) available upon which to nucleate an ice crystal (which would spread through the jug)--at least at the degree of undercooling you have available. Water is a very peculiar substance, its density is maximum at 39F and there is a positive volume change on solidification. As such, there is not much driving force for solidification as the temperature drops below the freezing point. The water in your tarp has lots of debris upon which a crystal of ice can form; the jug on the other hand, likely much less. The issue is that it takes energy to form a surface, that is, the surface dividing a small nucleus crystal of ice and the remaining liquid water. In order for the ice nucleus to form there must be enough gain from the heat of fusion (energy) of forming a that small volume of ice to make up the surface energy of that small volume. If there is no surface to act upon, e.g. homogeneous nucleation, ultra pure water will remain as a supercooled liquid down to about -38F.

Living here in the UP of Michigan I have often had to deal with freezing rain falling as supercooled droplets at ~15F, a real test of a vehicle's windshield defroster. (Our DaimlerChrysler and Subaru winter drivers get a B- to A rating on this, unfortunately even a well maintained LM Corvair defroster will only muster a D under these conditions, BTDT). I have also observed the effect when I mindlessly left a case of bottled water in the trunk of my wife's Subaru one night when it got down to 7F. When I went to retrieve the water, I noticed that only about 1/3 of the bottles had actually frozen. All it took was a simple snap of the finger to the side of a liquid bottle to cause it to instantly freeze. The mechanical kinetic energy of hitting the bottle was enough to create homogeneous nucleation of ice crystals.

Well, it is late in the evening and time to go out and plug in the block heater of my 01 Dodge (Cummins diesel) plow truck. It is -5F and I will have another 4-6" of snow to plow out tomorrow morning before going to work.

Dale Dewald
Hancock, MI


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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: Jim Stukenborg ()
Date: February 15, 2021 07:05PM

Mel, I put a gallon of water on the aluminum patio table overnight for 9 hours at 19 degrees F. It was frozen solid this morning. Are they doing any fracking near location?

Dale, a very interesting situation with the water bottles. Sounds like a good solution to the puzzle.

Jim

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 15, 2021 07:41PM

Fracking?
None that I am aware of.
Most Canadian Oil is over in Alberta, and no appreciable amounts of oil here in WA, that I am aware of.

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WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border, I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: February 16, 2021 05:25AM

I watched an experiment on tv once, they took a bottle of store bought water, 16oz, and let it sit out overnight in really cold weather, well below freezing. Next morning, bottle of water is not frozen. They take the bottle, give it a little shake and voila, it immediately starts to freeze, you can see the crystals rapidly forming.

Now with my attention deficit disorder, I completely forgot why it happens that way, but it can, and does.

Rocco

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: FoiledAgain ()
Date: February 16, 2021 08:46AM

So that's why a bottle of distilled water stayed liquid out in the garage after a cold snap. Very interesting. thank you, Dale Dewald.
Now I'd like to understand how it is a pan of boiling water tossed into subzero temps will instantly freeze to a vapor while cold water tossed thus will just stay...cold water.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: February 16, 2021 09:35AM

FoiledAgain Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So that's why a bottle of distilled water stayed liquid out in the garage after a cold snap. Very interesting. thank you, Dale Dewald.
> Now I'd like to understand how it is a pan of boiling water tossed into subzero temps will instantly freeze to a vapor while cold water tossed thus will just stay...cold water.

Boiling water at normal atmospheric temperatures is water changing to a gas. When tossed it forms large water droplets that have more exposed area to disperse heat faster and freeze to crystals, or snow before hitting the ground

A pan of cool water thrown is a large cohesive flying puddle. So only the outside cools before it hits the ground. It just takes longer to freeze.

It's the same concept used by ski resorts to make snow - spray a fine mist of water droplets at subzero temperatures and it freezes to snow before it hits the ground.

At least that's what I've read.

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: February 16, 2021 03:14PM

Water can do some strange things, it can go straight from a solid to a gas or water vapor. A friend proved this to me. He has a pond where we ice skate. The ice gets all covered with shavings from a large group of skaters, but on a clear subfreezing night, the shavings are all gone by morning.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: February 17, 2021 08:57AM

Yes J.O. and it can go from a gas to a solid as frost on a cold surface.

Aircraft pilots are trained about the danger of wing frost. Even the finest coating reduces wing lift so greatly a plane can't lift off the runway at normal take off speeds!!!

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Re: OT, Curiousity I don't understand cold VS COLD, I guess. confused smiley
Posted by: LeeS ()
Date: February 17, 2021 07:11PM

I would measure the temperature of the water.

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