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Key doesn't work
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 08, 2021 12:31PM

Here's one for you key masters out there. I've tried cutting this key on my clipper as well as my duplicator. I can't see what is wrong. The original works but the duplicates don't.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: January 08, 2021 12:36PM

Key guys seem to use the wire wheel agressively for that problem?

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 08, 2021 12:44PM

I filed all the sharp edges off of it. I've never had an issue with a duplicate key I've made before so I'm puzzled. What do they try to accomplish with the wire wheel?

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: January 08, 2021 12:59PM

Smooth and shorten I suppose. I've never done one...too many key guys around.

I have handmade keys for locks over the years..

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: junkman ()
Date: January 08, 2021 01:02PM

Try sliding the key in and out while turning to the start position. It should work, if you got the cut started in the correct position, and your cutter is properly aligned, then it should work. What is the key number, and what are the key cut numbers? Do you have a Curtis key cutter decoder gauge to check the cuts? This tool when used properly, will aid you in finding problems. Running over the key cuts with a wire wheel will deburr the rough spots that are left behind by the key cutter. Also, sometimes cheap keys will not have the starting point on the key exactly where they belong, and this also can give you grief. For this reason, I always prefer to use GM keys, even when they cost more, although sometimes I don't have the luxury of having the correct blank every time.

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Woodstock CT... Located on the Connecticut / Massachusetts border, approximately 6 miles from the center of Southbridge MA. About 45 minutes from Hartford CT. 1 1/2 hours West of Boston MA. Woodstock CT to Los Angeles CA 2,937.1 miles. 1 Mile as the crow flies to Big Bird's nest.

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: January 08, 2021 01:42PM

There is ALWAYS some error when making a duplicate key, more often than not, duplicates are cut slightly deeper than shallow.
Making a duplicate from a duplicate can make the error worse and in some cases if the machine cuts a bit shallow, it can correct the error of a duplicate that was cut deep.

One or both of the keys can be installed incorrectly in the vise jaws of the machine.
There is a shoulder on the key blank that is used to stop the key from gong to far into a cylinder.
After several years of use, the shoulder can become worn. This can alter how far the key slides into the cylinder.
After fifty years it is also possible that the part in the lock cylinder the shoulder comes in contact with has also worn. This also can contribute to a key working or not.
A worn shoulder on a key being duplicated can also contribute to the "Spacing" being off slightly as compared to the new blank.
Spacing between the shoulder and the center of each cut in the key is as important as the depth of the cut.

The key machine can be out of adjustment and a few thousandths of an inch can make a difference between a key that works or not.
There are differences in Key Blanks. Many of the generic blanks these days are not made to the exacting specifications they once were.
The lock cylinder could be worn and the key that works could also be worn enough that an incorrect key might work.
A new blank that is not as worn may then sit in a slightly different position than a worn key which could be enough it won't work.

When I worked in a retail Locksmith shop, we were very aware of the accuracy of our machine's adjustments and took great car to be sure they were as close to perfect as possible. The cutter wheel wears like anything else and if Steel Keys are attempted to be cut, they will quickly damage the cutter wheels.

Any machine can very easily get out of adjustment if it gets bumped just right.
Key Clippers also have adjustments that can be made. The anvil (cutting edge) can dull and become less accurate over time.

It is a possibility that the working key could be a duplicate and on the edge of function or maybe it at some point was copied off of a "Try Out" key which was never intended to be done. It is difficult to know exactly what the origins of a working key are after all these years.

It is ALWAYS a good idea to keep an "Original" key as a spare if at all possible. It is ALWAYS best to make duplicate keys from an original key.

To sum things up, there are dozens of reasons that making a duplicate from a "Working Key" will not result in another working key.
This is why it is important to have a key that is as close to original as possible to duplicate from.


IF the key you are attempting to duplicate works in the ignition switch, and IF the cylinder in the ignition switch is an original one, I would suggest removing it and look for the four digit code and make a new key by code.

P.S.
A GM Key through the 1970's has six cuts.
IF you are decoding the key with your gauge, keep in mind that in MOST cases there must be an even number of even cuts and an even number of odd cuts.
You can also not have a #1 cut adjacent to a #5 cut because the angle between the two will interfere. This is called Maximum adjacent cut specification (MACS).

1962 95 F.C. Van
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe
1965 Monza Coupe
1965 Monza Convertible
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/2021 01:47PM by Caraholic4life.

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: January 08, 2021 01:55PM

A quick way to check the accuracy of your duplicator is to take two identical blanks and put them in the machine then run them through like you are making a duplicate.
The cutter wheel should just graze the blank in the "Duplicate" position.
IF it cuts the blank all the way across the width of the blade (not the length), the machine is cutting to deep.
If the cutting wheel does not come in contact with the blank, it is cutting shallow.

1962 95 F.C. Van
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe
1965 Monza Coupe
1965 Monza Convertible
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 08, 2021 02:06PM

I translated the clipper numbers from the original key. It's the trunk lock number 8585. The key blank is an iLco. I tried moving it in and out slightly with no luck.
You are the best Junk! It was a bad key blank. I fixed it.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 08, 2021 02:09PM

Wow. Lots of great info from everyone. Thanks!

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: January 08, 2021 03:52PM

Had the same issue on JMA brand blanks I bought.

Those B11 blanks do not look pear headed. Is it just the photo?

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 08, 2021 04:06PM

Yes they are. It is just the way the picture is cropped. They do look round in the picture but I laid one on top of the original key and it is the same shape.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: January 08, 2021 04:35PM

I am NOT a fan of the Cole, Curtis, ESP, Jet, or JMA brand key blanks as I feel they are all of an inferior quality.

My first choice for the 1936-1955 GM Blanks are the original Strattec (Briggs & Stratton) blanks.
# 32318 (Ignition) Octagon shaped Head blanks are .95 cents each.
# 32319 (Glove Box) Pear shaped Head version are $1.01 each.

My second choice blanks would be Ilco or Taylor brands.
Ilco # H1098LA (Ignition) Octagon shaped Head are .54 cents each.
Ilco # O1098LA (Glove Box) Pear shaped Head are .67 cents each.

The Octagon Blanks are more popular and have a larger application which makes them less expensive to purchase at this time.
Note: These are my actual costs (today) from the wholesale supplier I use.

For the minimal difference in cost, I prefer to use the OE Blanks whenever I can.
They not only perform better, they look better too, but that is just my professional opinion.grinning smiley

1962 95 F.C. Van
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe
1965 Monza Coupe
1965 Monza Convertible
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 08, 2021 04:39PM

The GM blanks are still available? That's great!
I thought iLco was good but that is the one that was bad and looking at the first 3 blanks I picked up they were all cut a little different. I guess anyone can screw up.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: junkman ()
Date: January 08, 2021 06:51PM

8585 = 232334

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Woodstock CT... Located on the Connecticut / Massachusetts border, approximately 6 miles from the center of Southbridge MA. About 45 minutes from Hartford CT. 1 1/2 hours West of Boston MA. Woodstock CT to Los Angeles CA 2,937.1 miles. 1 Mile as the crow flies to Big Bird's nest.

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: January 08, 2021 08:40PM

I've never had an issue with Curtis blanks, but....

1. They are no longer being made.
2. Unlike Caraholic, I've only used certain blanks from them, not the whole lineup. And most of mine were purchased in the mid 80s/mid 90s timeframe.

Yes, the GM keys are in "reproduction", but they are still made by Briggs & Stratton (now Strattec as Caraholic said), so maybe that's not "reproduced", but "produced"!winking smiley

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: junkman ()
Date: January 09, 2021 11:29AM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I translated the clipper numbers from the original key. It's the trunk lock number 8585. The key blank is an iLco. I tried moving it in and out slightly with no luck.
> You are the best Junk! It was a bad key blank. I fixed it.


What is the six digit code that you used for cutting the key, and what book did you get the code from? Seems that there is some questions about the codes from what I have in my Curtis book to what is in Caraholic4life Curtis book. I am wondering how 2 different Curtis books could have different cutting codes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Woodstock CT... Located on the Connecticut / Massachusetts border, approximately 6 miles from the center of Southbridge MA. About 45 minutes from Hartford CT. 1 1/2 hours West of Boston MA. Woodstock CT to Los Angeles CA 2,937.1 miles. 1 Mile as the crow flies to Big Bird's nest.

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: January 09, 2021 03:39PM

Here is a photo of the page with the code 8585 from one of my Curtis code books.

Note:
After reviewing the 1936-1966 code series, it appears that the general rule regarding an even number of even and odd cuts does not apply.
Most of my GM Automotive key making was for later model locks with the A,B - C,D = E,H = & J,K blanks where this appears to have been implemented.

1962 95 F.C. Van
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe
1965 Monza Coupe
1965 Monza Convertible
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2021 03:45PM by Caraholic4life.

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: Caraholic4life ()
Date: January 09, 2021 03:58PM

Edit:
I initially posted the entire page but reconsidered and edited for just this one number.

1962 95 F.C. Van
1964 Greenbrier Deluxe
1965 Monza Coupe
1965 Monza Convertible
Westminster, Maryland

MID ENG enthusiast &
prior Kelmark owner.

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 09, 2021 05:15PM

Sorry I didn't have time to check today. I was arguing about eminent domain and annexation with a bunch of commies all day. If I get home early enough I'll try to check tomorrow.
Ok so I stopped writing and hiked out back to the mobile home where I have my key equipment setup. Here's what the book I used says: (and it worked)

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Key doesn't work
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: January 09, 2021 07:06PM

I'll TELL you where the change of depth number happens.

When using the Model 15 Curtis Clipper with the GM-1 Carriage and the GM-1 Cam, the cam will do 5 cut depths, but only 4 cut depths are needed for the 1935 to 1966 GM B&S keys (B-10 and B-11 styles). The 4 cut depths needed are cuts depths 2 to 5.

To do the B-40 series aka the A,B,C,D, etc blanks, all 5 cut depths are needed. And you also need the GM-2X carriage. Notice the same GM-1 Cam is used, but now depth 5 cuts deeper into the blank, and depth #1 equals the depth of #2 when cut with the blank in the GM-1 Carriage.

If you have the GM decoder ring, I mean the GM Curtis decoder plate, it shows GM-1 on one side of the slot (see Junk's picture of a Toyota decoder above) and GM-2 on the other side of the slot. The numbers on the left side (GM1) start with 2 and on the GM2 side, start with 1. GM1 cut depth 2 is the same depth as GM2 cut depth 1.

Confused?

I was when I decoded a key using the 61 Shop Manual and put that code in my clipper and the key would not work.confused smiley Investigation showed me what was up. Add 1 to every depth cut by GM for the Model 15. I also like the early GM code of Colors! Copper, Black, Yellow and Nickel.smileys with beer

Now the real question. Junk, what Curtis Clipper model is your book for, since it lists the actual B&S (GM) depth codes?

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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