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Actual HP numbers
Posted by: alphasud ()
Date: November 13, 2020 06:54PM

A few days ago a new poster with the VW/Corvair was claiming numbers. While I’m not going to build a large displacement radical engine I still plan on a CR bump to 10:1, using TK Tribute cylinder heads on my 140, OT20, and EFI. I need to find a shop in my area to Dyno before and after for my actual numbers but I was wondering if there are any members who have done something similar and have dyno results.

David North Idaho
1965 Corsa Turbo converted to 140
1971 Super Beetle with 2.5L Subaru engine
1965 Corsa mid engine project
1973 Mercedes 280 project

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: November 13, 2020 10:00PM

Duane Cartwright has documented and dyno'ed every aspect of his highly developed EFI 140. As I recall he's up to 195 net hp - the highest streetable number I've ever heard.

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: November 14, 2020 09:37AM

What type of dyno do you plan to use? Be aware that different days and even time of day will impact the numbers. I hub dyno is a realistic way to measure what your actually putting down. An engine dyno has many variables that make it hard to focus on differences in engine. Sounds interesting though, be sure to share your findings!

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: davemotohead ()
Date: November 14, 2020 09:44AM

Here is a completely stock new 140 I built right after break in on a hub dyno. Then here is one of Rays EFI Turbo's on the Same dyno. smoking smiley







1960 4dr sedan caveman car
1961 Rampside (Chetside)
1962 Rampside (Barnside)
1962 Short Rampside (Shortside)
1962 Monza 700 Wagon
1963 Monza 900 coup (General Nader)

-----------------------------------
Rust Free Lancaster Ca

Attachments:

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: chris ()
Date: November 14, 2020 10:16AM

What Dave posted is what I've seen/read. Even Chevy measured the 140HP at an actual 109ish HP. An article by Tom Berg (I think) in one of the tech guides is regarding a club member's TBI fuel injected 140HP named "Bridie". It was putting out 100 hp and 133 lb/ft at the wheels. Other than the fuel injection, I don't know what else was done to the engine.

'65 Monza 4 door
4 speed
110hp
Gardner, KS

Heart of America Corvair Owners Association

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: November 15, 2020 08:33AM

Would an EFI fuel injection have anything else done to it? And has anyone ever measured a stock turbo like that?

____________________________________________

Eric C. Player, Porterville, CA, USA (Seriously! It's the USA out here!)
MEMBER: CORSA National, Central Coast CORSA, South Coast CORSA, Vintage CORSA, Sfba CORSA, and the San Joaquin Valley Corvair Club.
THEN:
1965 Monza 110, Canary Yellow
1965 Corsa 180 Turbo, Red
1966 Monza 110, Purple
1967 Monza 140, Red
1966 500 110, Black; nicknamed "Shadow"
1965 Monza 110, Camaro Yellow; nicknamed "Silver"
NOW:
1966 Corsa 180 Turbo, Blue; nicknamed "Bluvair"

"He cautioned me not to take notes. It would not have helped if I had, as he would start a paragraph with, 'It is therefore obvious. . .'
and go on from there to matters which may have been obvious to him and God but to no one else."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, character of Daniel B. Davis, 'The Door Into Summer.'

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 15, 2020 08:40AM

All things being the same otherwise..FI does not add power

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: November 15, 2020 11:25AM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All things being the same otherwise..FI does not add power

This needs to be qualified ALOT!! even if the stock carb is used for a throttle body, the choke and venturi are deleted, and this one modification is enough to take the boost to 15psi. Timing flexibility that is inherent in EFI allows for a much better match to the engine and turbo and you know darned well what better timing does to a turbo. So yes, in the real world, efi does add power. Even at the same peak boost, the EFI is going to be at least one gear ahead of the carb set-up to get to peak boost, which is faster and is making more power sooner.
My own experiance using the same turbo and heads on the same engine and same peak boost might be helpful here... 38mm secondary and 29mm primary on my weber was enough to get 10psi in first gear, 15psi in second and over 20 in third gear. The carb was set-up that way to get as good of throttle response and best peak power as could be done. With the weber converted to a throttle body and rigged to open both plates synchronous and a huge amount of work to extract maximum airflow from the throttle body and manifold, and extremely strong timing, I get 15 in first, and 22+ in second, the peak is my self imposed limit and its where I let off at. Turbos spool much better when only pumping dry warm air, and this is one of the advantage of any blow through set-ups carbed or otherwise. Another example of the difference would be Ray Sedmans old set-up that had a Quadrajet on it- he got ten psi in first and 25 in second and was using a E-flow compressor. The Quadjet would be "acting" about the same airflow wise as my gutted DCOE throttle body but is clearly putting up more boost and more power quicker than the Q-jet set-up is. On my engine... I've found the power quality between the carbed set-up and EFI set-up isnt even CLOSE! the carbed set-up always felt doggy and sluggish out of boost, the EFI set-up feels very NA like. This kind of thing goes to area under the power curve, and for acceleration purposes, is as important, if not more important than peak power. Kind of like how a overcammed car that makes bigger peak hp numbers looses races when going against the same engine with a cam thats a better match, but down on peak power.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: November 15, 2020 12:23PM

63turbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MattNall Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > All things being the same otherwise..FI does not add power
>
> This needs to be qualified ALOT!! even if the stock carb is used for a throttle body, the choke and venturi are deleted, and this one modification is enough to take the boost to 15psi. Timing flexibility that is inherent in EFI allows for a much better match to the engine and turbo and you know darned well what better timing does to a turbo. So yes, in the real world, efi does add power. Even at the same peak boost, the EFI is going to be at least one gear ahead of the carb set-up to get to peak boost, which is faster and is making more power sooner.
> My own experiance using the same turbo and heads on the same engine and same peak boost might be helpful here... 38mm secondary and 29mm primary on my weber was enough to get 10psi in first gear, 15psi in second and over 20 in third gear. The carb was set-up that way to get as good of throttle response and best peak power as could be done. With the weber converted to a throttle body and rigged to open both plates synchronous and a huge amount of work to extract maximum airflow from the throttle body and manifold, and extremely strong timing, I get 15 in first, and 22+ in second, the peak is my self imposed limit and its where I let off at. Turbos spool much better when only pumping dry warm air, and this is one of the advantage of any blow through set-ups carbed or otherwise. Another example of the difference would be Ray Sedmans old set-up that had a Quadrajet on it- he got ten psi in first and 25 in second and was using a E-flow compressor. The Quadjet would be "acting" about the same airflow wise as my gutted DCOE throttle body but is clearly putting up more boost and more power quicker than the Q-jet set-up is. On my engine... I've found the power quality between the carbed set-up and EFI set-up isnt even CLOSE! the carbed set-up always felt doggy and sluggish out of boost, the EFI set-up feels very NA like. This kind of thing goes to area under the power curve, and for acceleration purposes, is as important, if not more important than peak power. Kind of like how a overcammed car that makes bigger peak hp numbers looses races when going against the same engine with a cam thats a better match, but down on peak power.


But, You changed the flow: More air = more fuel= more HP

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: November 15, 2020 01:45PM

>
> But, You changed the flow: More air = more fuel= more HP

This goes to "power" vs response, and is the kind of crappy trade that always happens with old school carbs that dont deal with low vaccum conditions well. If it was only a "airflow" consideration, I could have put twin 44mm chokes on it, but it would have ran extremely poorly. Its those kind of reasons that the old lie about not being able to make more power by putting a bigger carburetor on existed. The reality is that you could if the carb that you put on was more sensitive than the one that was taken off, or had a way to slow down the opening to avoid bogs. My "carbed" weber was sized as well as it could be and still work right,and it needed to have the secondary open with vacuum.

The better comparison is between Ray Sedmans Quadra jet, because that does flow more than my gutted dcoe. In terms of dry airflow, however, 750 cfm on my weber is approximately the same airflow as the 850 cfm on the Quadrajet, because the carb is flowing both gas and air, but the "airflow" ratings for those are measured with dry air.

15psi of boost in first for mine with an F/B combo 22psi in second
vs 10 in first and 25 in second with an E/F combo... which of these is doing better? Not including the crappy 10 or 12miles per gallon that Ray got with that vs the 22-25 that I get with mine.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 15, 2020 03:05PM

Chassis dyno shops in Seattle

Chassis dynos in Spokane

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 15, 2020 03:21PM

playerpage Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would an EFI fuel injection have anything else done to it? And has anyone ever measured a stock turbo like that?

=====================================================

Nick / Miniman here did his stock 180 with just EDIS ignition.. in YOUR area on a HOT DAY...GOT 99HP REAR WHEEL.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: November 15, 2020 04:48PM

A 180 put 99 to the ground?
eye popping smiley
so what's an 80 hp put to the rear wheels?
35??? eye rolling smiley

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 15, 2020 05:28PM

Amel...as always...we lose approx. 20 hp thru our tansaxle.. that's proven. Why Gregory / Michael had their transaxle micro polished...gained 4-5 mph with no other changes

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: November 15, 2020 05:33PM

Do the math Matt.
180 maybe a bit of an exaggeratedgross at the flywheel, but 99 on the ground is still more than a 20% loss!

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: alphasud ()
Date: November 15, 2020 07:07PM

Thanks Matt for the reminder. I will call some speed shops tomorrow to get more information on the type of dyno’s their running and how much it will cost me to do a pull. I look forward to getting a baseline before I pull the power pack. Hoping to sell a project I’m working on to help fund the engine build.

David North Idaho
1965 Corsa Turbo converted to 140
1971 Super Beetle with 2.5L Subaru engine
1965 Corsa mid engine project
1973 Mercedes 280 project

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: tomkeo ()
Date: November 15, 2020 07:14PM

Here's the math. HP = Torque X RPM (divided by) 5250. Looking at the dyno curve Dave posted, you would need OVER 500 lb/ft of torque at 3500 rpm in order to produce 350 HP at that speed as shown on the graph. Not very likely, even with an E-flow compressor. Matt is right, at wide open throttle and the same boost level, there will be very little difference in HP between FI and carburetor.
As far a true horse power rating, Hugh MacInnes (he wrote the book on turbo's) told me that the L/M 180 produced a true 160 hp at the flywheel. Hugh's company (TRW) did all the development work on the Corvair turbo set-up for GM.

Tom Keosababian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2020 07:19PM by tomkeo.

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: November 15, 2020 07:27PM

American Mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do the math Matt.
> 180 maybe a bit of an exaggeratedgross at the flywheel, but 99 on the ground is still more than a 20% loss!

Yes it is exactly right! an 80 hp Corvair engine will produce more like 60 at the rear wheels (not 35)

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 15, 2020 07:35PM

FC's have a NET HP listed on the body tag. 80hp is usually 65

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Actual HP numbers
Posted by: injectedvair ()
Date: November 15, 2020 07:51PM

Gentlemen
It's interesting to see your comments on FI and HP.
1. Our transaxle will absorb between 15-20% of our HP.
2. The cooling fan 15HP, documented on chassis dyno, 3 runs with cool down between runs.Note my plenum does, slightly, occlude the cooling fan entry angle.
3.FI, throttle body style, might net a little more HP, but only due to a little better atomization of the fuel i.e. better emulsion, smaller particle size.
4.FI port style comes in 2 types on Corvairs, a) Injectors in the original manifold without control of timing b)modified heads with individual runners two subtypes throttle bodies, Borla,TMW or injector in individual manifold pointing at the valve. Both types with individual timing control.
Injectors in the original manifold will increase the HP but is limited due to the volumetric efficiency limits inherent in the original manifold design.
Between the Borla TMW, remote injector long runner and the injector mounted in an individual runner close to and pointing at the valve with a remote plenum
Now to explain the differences in these two systems a) the TMW style mixes the fuel a distance away from the valve which means that the intake runner is not 100% air but some of the manifold area is taken up by fuel and air, certainly better than the original manifold since there is considerably more unrestricted area available to the incoming charge. As to the injector mounted pointing at the valve and close to the valve allows for there to be only air in the intake manifold, fed by a plenum upstream, thereby doing two distinct things acting as an air ram and adding to undiluted volumetric efficiency.
As too timing, having control of timing throughout the rpm and load range of the engine is another tuning item that has a large influence on HP. It alone has the biggest overall control of HP as the timing can be controlled to maximize MEP, mean effective pressure, at approximately 15-20 degrees after top dead center.By maximizing MEP at the proper point in the cycle torque is maximized. There is less negative work imposed on the crankshaft.
Note by engine, using my injection system, made 195HP NA and 210lb ft of torque.
I am building a new 170 CI motor with a cam designed for my head flow and will be engine dyno testing it in the near future. I will report when this is complete.
Sorry for being so long winded.
I can be reached at cartwrightinjection@gmail.com or 503-312-1573.

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