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Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: KenHenry ()
Date: November 02, 2020 12:07PM

I thought I would share a few photos of the custom EFI setup I have been working on for the 140 engine in my 65 coupe. I suppose this has been a way of procrastinating on body work/block sanding!

The system uses a four-barrel center mount intake manifold mated to a ~2000 Dodge pickup throttle body with a custom adapter. The throttle is actuated by a Morse push/pull cable running to the original lever under the rear seat. Fuel is from four 330 cc/hr injectors mounted in the intake runners and directed down toward the intake ports of the heads. I put a fuel pump in the tank and a BMW fuel filter with integral vacuum-referenced fuel pressure regulator on the firewall, above the differential.

The ignition system is a Ford EDIS control module with a Chrysler coil pack, and everything is operated with a Megasquirt2 ECU. I'm running a big-single style exhaust modeled after plans posted by Al Lacki with a Spartan wideband O2 sensor and OEM muffler from a 2017 Mustang GT. It sounds great but might quiet for some true badasses. Ted Brown provided the EDIS crank wheel and head temp sensor, and I have a nice distributor plug from Ray Sedman waiting to go in when I have time.

For crankcase ventilation, I used a Toyota PCV valve in place of the typical fixed orifice and added a vent line to the oil filler tube at the rear of the engine. This should give the engine the flow through ventilation.

I just got it started and running this past weekend. I still have plenty of tuning to do but it really moves! I can try to get a video up later this week when warm weather is supposed to return to Rochester. I'm still trying some things out and would be curious what others target for AFR under various conditions: idle, cruise, WOT, etc. Thanks! Ken

553E0B36-F5EB-4A47-B54B-C7E31E1981FF by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

E98983F5-EDFF-401D-ADEF-238D2B9D2612 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

2EA6FDBE-EC1E-466A-8413-1C57935E0F80 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

FFAE3764-58D9-434D-9F36-CF15C8E9F3BE by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

61A06F99-AC6F-41A8-8584-212F563BD6E5 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

Ken Henry, Rochester, NY USA
1965 Corvair Corsa
140 hp, 4 speed

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: November 02, 2020 12:12PM

Very nice!

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Norman, OK

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: doug6423 ()
Date: November 02, 2020 01:42PM

Looks good!

Doug
65 Monza
Cincy, OH

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: November 02, 2020 01:53PM

Nice!! for afr targets, I use 14.5:1 for light load crusing, for harder loads short of boost, roughly 12.5:1, and into boost, my goal is to gradually richen as the boost climbs, and not go richer than 11-11.5. During deceleration, its not unusual for it to lean out as far as 17:1.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: AlecCarlson ()
Date: November 02, 2020 03:01PM

Nice work !!!

I also have installed an EDIS-6 ignition using a Megajolt ECU on my 66 turbo. It is also crank fired. I have an Innovate MTX-L AFR and a Snow's progressive Methanol injection system.

Keep the pictures and the story coming. It's great to see this kind of custom work in progress..

Alec
Dahlonega, GA
1965 Corsa Convertible Turbo 4-Speed
Restoration "In Progress"

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: November 02, 2020 03:29PM

Nice work!

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: AZ Troy ()
Date: November 02, 2020 05:53PM

Very nice set up & I bet it will work great.

Have you considered leaving the distributor installed & putting a pinwheel on top of the shaft?

Troy G. / Scottsdale Arizona

'65 140 Corsa Coupe
'66 180 Corsa Coupe - Crown Converted in the '60's

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: chris ()
Date: November 02, 2020 07:59PM

Cool setup! Did the stock Dodge setup have the fuel injectors in the ports?

'65 Monza 4 door
4 speed
110hp
Gardner, KS

Heart of America Corvair Owners Association

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 02, 2020 08:07PM

IIRC nope Throttle body 2bbl used on 360 v8's late 90's.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: KenHenry ()
Date: November 03, 2020 08:12AM

Thanks for the encouraging words, everyone! Matt is correct: Dodge trucks of that vintage had the fuel injectors in the intake manifold rather than as part of the throttle body, avoiding some of problem of throttle body injection system. The injectors on my setup, and caps to which the fuel lines attach, are from a couple of Ducati Monster motorcycle throttle bodies found fairly cheap on ebay.

Troy: I do enjoy watching the distributor parts spin around as it runs! It would be cool to do something creative with it! Ken

Ken Henry, Rochester, NY USA
1965 Corvair Corsa
140 hp, 4 speed

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: Gregory_Miller ()
Date: November 04, 2020 03:05PM

American-Pi makes a cap and one can take a distributor and cut it down to just run the oil pump and cap it off.

Greg Miller
Eugene, Oregon

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: Melb-Mike ()
Date: November 04, 2020 04:16PM

Not meant as a criticism of your incredible project but did you consider using the Holley Sniper EFI 2 barrel setup ?

I just installed the bigger Sniper EFI on my 70 SS 454 Chevelle and found it fairly easy to function nicely. The unit incorporates the computer in the back of the throttle body. Only 5 wires need to be connected: (1) battery positive. (2) battery negative (3) ignition coil negative. (4) Ignition 12 VDC (5) O2 sensor. The system “learns” the engine and your demands of it. It’s required to install a 62 psi electric fuel pump, a fuel return line, and an O2 sensor bung or use their easy clamp on sensor bung. It can also control ignition with the right setup.

You can set the various AFI numbers for idle, WOT, AND cruise, set idle speed. They made it very convenient. Not anywhere as sophisticated as your setup but easier for some of us who lack your mechanical skills.

Having said this, I truly admire what you’ve been able to do, absolutely brilliant work. You and Ted Brown have unique skills.

64 Greenbrier
64 Spyder (needs restoration)
65 Corsa 140, restored
66 Corsa turbo, restoring now
66 Corsa 140 "RR" code coupe fully restored
67 Pontiac GTO restored
69 Corvette 427 convertible restored
2015 Porsche Panamera S
2015 Corvette Z06
1965 AC Cobra (Factory Five)

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: KenHenry ()
Date: November 05, 2020 07:28AM

Thanks Mike, The Megasquirt is definitely not as user friendly as one of the off the shelf setups like the Holley Sniper. It does have a fairly decent autotune function but it requires you to be hooked up with a laptop. And because the Megasquirt is so flexible, allowing many different kinds of hardware to be used, the end user needs to make a lot of (correct) decisions and tune in many different settings. For example, I had to go through the effort of measuring the dead time for my injectors since specs weren't available.

One reason I didn't go with the Sniper (or GM truck TBI), and I have no direct experience with this this and am simply repeating what I've heard, is the long path for fuel from the injectors to the intake ports through fairly cool intake runners. It might work fine though - someone posted recently about an apparently successful setup using the Sniper I believe.

It's running great now so I've been putting some miles on while I can. It's possible that my AFR gauge is a little off, but it seems to cruise best with the AFR at 14. If I try to go leaner, the gauge seems to swing and I hear faint rattles from the engine! This is still leaner than it was running on the original carbs (it stayed around 13 under most conditions, dipping toward 12 under heavy load and rising closer to 14 at idle), so I think I'll just go with it.

I had a little difficulty getting a stable 700 rpm idle. I reduced the advance at idle from 18 to 14 and now it's behaving well. Ken

Ken Henry, Rochester, NY USA
1965 Corvair Corsa
140 hp, 4 speed

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: SpyderMan ()
Date: November 05, 2020 09:04AM

Ken, are you running a MAP sensor? If so changing the sensitivity of it in your settings may help with your idle. I am able to run in gear (PG) 600rpm and it is super smooth. Corvairs have a very lumpy vacuum signal and most MAP sensors don't know quite what to do with it.

Sam Russell
Durham NC
1962 Monza Wagon Ted Brown EFI Gen II
1964 Spyder coupe


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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: KenHenry ()
Date: November 05, 2020 09:51AM

Hi Sam, yes, it's a speed density system with a MAP sensor. It doesn't appear to be jumping around much at idle but is rather low at idle. I'm only seeing about 9 inches of vacuum at idle currently. It pulls plenty of vacuum while cruising. Ken

Ken Henry, Rochester, NY USA
1965 Corvair Corsa
140 hp, 4 speed

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: Melb-Mike ()
Date: November 05, 2020 04:59PM

Thanks for the reply and explanation Ken. You’re right about the Sniper’s injectors being some distance from the cylinders with the Corvair’s 4 barrel intake manifold, and that can’t help. Your setup is ideal with the injectors so close.

When I setup my Lotus Super 7 for SCCA timed trials, I spent several hours on the Dyno and my laptop. It had a Pectel T2 ECU, and like the mega squirt was very “adjustable” with fuel and timing. We found more power by leaning out the fuel but the danger of burning pistons and valves was a concern. I settled for 12.9 AFR at WOT but gave up almost 10 RWHP vs 13.5 AFR. I’m not a gambler. However having 187 RWHP in a car weighing 1080 lbs so it was more than enough. I was always curious to see what AFR the Rochester carbs on Corvairs were getting. Apparently you spent some time getting data. I would have guessed they would be on the rich side since GM had warranty concerns and related repair costs.

I can’t tell you how impressed I am with what you’ve done. You’re way above our abilities.

Mike

64 Greenbrier
64 Spyder (needs restoration)
65 Corsa 140, restored
66 Corsa turbo, restoring now
66 Corsa 140 "RR" code coupe fully restored
67 Pontiac GTO restored
69 Corvette 427 convertible restored
2015 Porsche Panamera S
2015 Corvette Z06
1965 AC Cobra (Factory Five)

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: nirvairna ()
Date: November 05, 2020 07:18PM

I can’t tell you how impressed I am with what you’ve done. You’re way above our abilities.

smileys with beer

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: KenHenry ()
Date: November 06, 2020 07:48AM

Thanks everyone. Wow Mike, that must have been a real thrill running your Lotus on the track! I drove the Corvair a few times on the carbs with the WB02 installed, and was surprised that it was so consistently down around 13 AFR. I would like to test my WB02 gauge against a known good one. Mine is the Spartan 2. I should also peek in my primaries to see what size jets were in there...

It appears I have to rethink my revised PCV system with a true PCV valve and the fresh air tube running from the oil filler to the air cleaner. I'm getting excessive oil in the air cleaner assembly. An ideas of how I could baffle it to keep oil spray from blowing up into the air cleaner? The engine is likely worn but doesn't smoke and I never had this issue on the carbs. Perhaps just a metal screen? Alternatively I can revert back to the stock fixed orifice system... Ken

Ken Henry, Rochester, NY USA
1965 Corvair Corsa
140 hp, 4 speed

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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: November 06, 2020 08:34AM

KenHenry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks everyone. Wow Mike, that must have been a real thrill running your Lotus on the track! I drove the Corvair a few times on the carbs with the WB02 installed, and was surprised that it was so consistently down around 13 AFR. I would like to test my WB02 gauge against a known good one. Mine is the Spartan 2. I should also peek in my primaries to see what size jets were in there...
>
> It appears I have to rethink my revised PCV system with a true PCV valve and the fresh air tube running from the oil filler to the air cleaner. I'm getting excessive oil in the air cleaner assembly. An ideas of how I could baffle it to keep oil spray from blowing up into the air cleaner? The engine is likely worn but doesn't smoke and I never had this issue on the carbs. Perhaps just a metal screen? Alternatively I can revert back to the stock fixed orifice system... Ken

One of the benefits of carbs is the ease of getting a steady air fuel ratio... this has everything to do with the continuous flow of fuel and air. The downside is that ideally, you want the fuel air ratio to vary as the load on the engine changes. Really hard loads should produce a richer mixture than for a lighter load. This is both for safety reasons and getting the getting the most out of the engine... lean best power is around 13.5:1 rich best power is around 12.5:1, lean best torque is around 11.5:1 rich best torque is something like 10.5:1, but it is senseless to go that rich! the distinction is that the timing can be stronger and produce better torque, but if this same rich best torque timing is used with the best power afr's the engine will detonate. Being able to manipulate the timing for the afr's and current load is one of the many benefits of EFI.
I bet you had the same oiling issue before with the carbs, but you just didnt know it, the carbs were likely washing the oil away with gasoline. A air/oil separator can do wonders for things like that!!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Custom 140 EFI setup
Posted by: KenHenry ()
Date: November 06, 2020 09:40AM

Kevin, here's my ignition table. I originally had it going up to 57 degrees advance at >2800 RPM cruise to match the published specs (18 initial plus 18 mechanical plus 21 vacuum, for the 140hp distributor), but thought I could hear faint rattling at cruise. I realize your engine is turbocharged but how much advance are you running? Ken

IgnTable by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

Ken Henry, Rochester, NY USA
1965 Corvair Corsa
140 hp, 4 speed

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