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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: FoiledAgain ()
Date: October 23, 2020 10:17AM

Way-ull...them lifters ain't a-pumpin'up ay-toll. The oil pressure appears sufficient to get the job done, but after a good long run, it still sounds like skeletons clog dancing on a tin roof.
Haven't tried adjustment yet, but it sure does seem they are compromised by varnish, snot, chunks of crap inside 'em, that sort of thing.

I found similar in a '55 Olds Rocket motor, glunked-up lifters. [That particular engine was known for less-than-quiet/terrific lifter performance].

Tell me what you think of this plan: When I go in to replace the pushrod tube seals, after determining all pushrods are straight, plucking out the lifters, determining the faces are not gouged out, separating them in order, then disassembling and cleaning them.

Worth a shot?

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: October 23, 2020 10:33AM

Well, I'd say pull ONE, see what the situation is and THEN plan from there. I'm about the cheapest person on earth but even I sprung for new lifters. The decision was made easier when I got new in the box Sig Erson lifters for $20 off Ebay. Shipping was $8.

But anyway, once you get a lifter out you can take a gander at the lobe and see if the cam is bad. But if everything is like you say (all valves making noise) then I think by the law of averages at least a few lifters wouldn't be stuck (based on plunger position) and the cam might be worn due to lack of oil???



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2020 10:34AM by wittsend.

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: Timothy Shortle ()
Date: October 23, 2020 10:42AM

Hey foiled have you done an engine oil and filter change? That has always helped my "noisy" lifters on engine that have sat for long periods of time. I like to drain the oil when the engine is HOT and then let it drain for long periods of time.

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: October 23, 2020 10:46AM

Without reading back through 4+ pages I presume you removed/cleaned oil pan so no sludge is on engine bottom. If you want to inspect just one or two lifters remove from numbers 5 and 6. Those almost always show wear quicker.

General theory is never replace lifters with used cam. I realize it has been done with success but also with failure too. Keep your lifters in order as you remove and place back into same position.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC/V8 Registry

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 23, 2020 10:49AM

F-A, do you have the brakes fixed yet? Have you driven it for 30 minutes yet?

The engine won't get up to normal temps until you do. We're talking from EXPERIENCE!

This is not an Olds v8, 324, etc. or an IH 345 which were known to have to pump up the lifters by hand to get them working again.

Once you buy O-rings [ viton] and valve cover gaskets you can re-use several times. they are not 40-60 years old like you have now.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: FoiledAgain ()
Date: October 23, 2020 04:58PM

Matt- naw, he doesn't even have 4 round tires, so I will continue patience.
SteveC-5 or 6, gotcha.
Timothy- yes, new oil and filter.
Wittsend- you think you're cheap? Okay. Ha! But yeah, check one when the time comes.

Thanks, you guys. I am going to go the patient route as you suggest, because, well, it's easier and makes good sense. Plus, I realized I had not done a compression check since getting the thing running, so warmed it up and did so. The first cold/pre-getting it running and running/warmed-up figures:

1] 120/130
2] 90/130
3] 90/130
4] 60/125
5] 80/125
6] 90/120

I'm at just above 4000' elevation so I can live with those numbers. With its OP at 30 at idle and above 40 when RPM is around 1500 it seems reasonably healthy, so why go rooting around looking for trouble?
Also, some noise I ascribed to valvetrain is instead clutch/throwout noise. Clutch is way out of adjustment. Hope it's not a screwy flywheel. I was expecting at least to shell out for a clutch disk and a new T/O.
There's plenty to be done w/o obsessing over clickety valves. Brakes, U-joints, de-shroud, clean fins and scrape off mung plus whatever else pops up.
I should instead be obsessing over welding up a cradle so I can do the do [and clutch etc.] with motor out.

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 23, 2020 05:12PM

Tires hold air for 10 minutes? Cheap?? Put a 1/2 [12 oz. can] of Evaporated Milk in each tire Cheap?? Works as good as Slime!

Just hold nose when dismounting tire later!!! LOL

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: RobertC ()
Date: October 23, 2020 05:21PM

As Steve Goodman stated, at some point, you need to remove the oil pan and clean it out.

Leaded gas left an amount of grey sludge (lead?) in the bottom of the pan.

A previous Corvair mechanic of mine used two original GM oil pan paper gaskets glued together on the oil pan. Others here have their fixes for oil pan leaks.

You also need to check the pan for "dimples" around the bolt holes from over enthusiastic tighteners and smooth them out.

Personally, I would not adjust the valves until you are sure the lifters are working correctly / fully pumped up.

I am not familiar with EM clutches. LM flywheels would have the rivets come loose and make a lot of noise.

Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2020 05:22PM by RobertC.

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: October 23, 2020 06:11PM

FA you say above new oil and filter. Have you removed and clean pan? If no you are trying to recirculate the sludge mixed in the oil. You need fresh and clean oil only in the engine.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC/V8 Registry

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: FoiledAgain ()
Date: October 23, 2020 06:13PM

Evap milk? Ha! You ought to see some of the ranch buggy tires I see- half-full of tire slime, sidewall holes jammed with RTV-soaked rope, pretty sure one's going to be filled with alfalfa.

Ahhh...okay. I thought the earlies also had a riveted component. Thanks!
I need to do a lot more readin' here, I swear.

Check. Tetraethyl lead, my favorite thing in the world, right up there with eating paint chips. Every oil pan that shows up gets the rail made flat again. At some point I will get a gasket set. Pretty sure the top cover is leaky, and I need to determine the case venting is clear.

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 23, 2020 06:44PM

ALL factory flywheel, all year were cold riveted and come loose at some time.

You can BOLT it or buy a hot riveted unit.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: FoiledAgain ()
Date: October 23, 2020 06:48PM

Gotcha- thanks.

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: October 23, 2020 07:28PM

Quote
Foiled
Ahhh...okay. I thought the earlies also had a riveted component.

And you are right! All Corvair flywheels are riveted assembly of three parts.

The 60 to 63 is a flat flywheel and the 64 to 69 is a recessed flywheel. Both can be bolted or hot riveted to repair them. But, they need to be balanced after bolting or re-riveting.

A loose rivet flywheel typically sounds like a bad rod bearing. Knock Knock Knock.

To test a flywheel, support it in the middle on something through the center hole like a wheel on an axle. Hit it and listen for nice bell like ring (good) or dull thud (bad). Dave motohead has a video on this.

Or if you break a starter nose, time to check the flywheel (or torque converter). winking smiley

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: October 23, 2020 07:29PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tires hold air for 10 minutes? Cheap?? Put a 1/2 [12 oz. can] of Evaporated Milk in each tire Cheap?? Works as good as Slime!
>
> Just hold nose when dismounting tire later!!! LOL


Matt, you just can't get away from your days at the used car lot. LOL

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 23, 2020 07:35PM

> MattNall Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Tires hold air for 10 minutes? Cheap?? Put a 1/2 [12 oz. can] of Evaporated Milk in each tire Cheap?? Works as good as Slime!
> >
> > Just hold nose when dismounting tire later!!! LOL
>===================================================
jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Matt, you just can't get away from your days at the used car lot. LOL
==================================================================

I was a rude awakening.... having a father that only purchased NEW parts from the Dealer when repairing our cars.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: October 23, 2020 08:17PM

My experience. I don't mean this as obnoxious as it may sound (but for those who remember the commercial): "This is you engine, this is your engine running on sludge. (pause) Any questions?"

Attachments:

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 23, 2020 08:34PM

But it running!!! Common in the 50-60's.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: October 23, 2020 09:04PM

Eons ago when I was much younger, I worked at an Eagle Dealership. Remember those? winking smiley
Anyway, one day they take in a trade, and as per usual procedure it gets sent to the service dept. for an evaluation as to whether we should detail it for the used car lot, or wholesale it off.
You could here the Mechanic going-off from anywhere on the property when he discovered that this first gen Eagle Talon TSI (Eagle badged Mitsu Eclipse Turbo AWD), had 18,000 miles on it and had NEVER had one single oil-change ! ! !
YES, it was still running around with the Factory Original Oil Filter on it. eye popping smiley
Yeah, it went straight to the Wholesale lot IMMEDIATELY!

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: FoiledAgain ()
Date: October 24, 2020 09:09AM

Well then, I must have a floppy flywheel 'cause the noise you describe fits to a 'T', and I'm guessing w/o the disk pushing against it, the loose component is free to make bad noise, yes? Terrific. Bolt and nut, or tap threads? Has anyone tried heating the rivets and hammering 'em down again? Of course, and it doesn't work for long, I'll bet.

Despite the zinc woes, oil today is SO much better than when our old cars were new.

The old man ran a Phillips 66 station in Sodak, and was very proud of Trop-Artic oil. Trop-Artic had a comparatively high amount of detergent compared to Havoline or Penz. Occasionally one of his old clients would give him their old car when they became too old to drive, and he'd pop off a VC and marvel at the cleanliness. At one point the family had 11 vehicles out front, many of them were customer hand-me-downs, the rest were VWs of all flavors. One of the old codgers was a '60 Impala 283/PG that had racked up just short of 300,000 miles.

That sludge is very familiar. Last year I built a Ford 272 Y-Block for a local fellow, and you could stand a screwdriver tip-down in the pan. Same deal w/ the Ford FE motor I built for my '64 Galaxie- like cake frosting, just awful. As a matter of fact, even after vatting the block for several days, steel rods had to be pounded through the gallies, and out came asphalt snakes. Machinist pointed out it was the worst block he'd seen that didn't have a hole in it. It was saved as it numbermatched the car, and it's a sweet nice runner.

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Re: About to tear into a virgin '60 engine
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: October 24, 2020 10:54AM

Easy check for loose flywheel is with engine at idle just push down on clutch pedal. If noise goes away the flywheel is loose.

No easy/quick/cheap repair for the flywheel buy either bolted or hot rivet rebuilt.

Since you are still dwelling on oil pan sludge I will ask one more time: have you removed and cleaned oil pan?

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC/V8 Registry

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