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Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: ecar66corsa ()
Date: September 21, 2020 04:42PM

Hey everyone, I'm new to the forum as I recently purchased a 66 corsa coupe. I was looking for advice regarding my carb situation.

When I purchased the 66 corsa the previous owner had a 600 cfm center mount Edelbrock carburetor carburetor installed. The car had a high idle, lacked any sort of torque and frequently stalled out, pretty much nothing done could get the car to run anything short or mediocrely even after taking it to a carb mechanic to have it tuned. I understand that 600cfm is much to high for the engine which accounts for why it is running rich and has no torque, other than having the wrong carburetor there are a few vacuum leaks, and the throttle body linkage is poorly modified and will need to be fixed (rebent/extended).

I would also need to buy a 390 cfm holly center mount, vacuum lines, linkages etc. to get the vair running decently. My question is should I bother with the center mount carb (purchasing a new one +parts)? Would it be better to source some original Rochester carbs and all linkages? Or since the cost of sourcing the carbs and all the parts is a majority of that compared to EFI, should I go straight into an EFI conversion (ted brow vs EZ EFI)? I understand that both the Ted brown and EZEFI use the stock carbs to mount to but if EFI is that much improved it may be worth the extra time and cash.

Any advice and help would be much appreciated (best option of the three, if stock carbs best place to purchase), this is my first corvair and I'm excited to be able to drive it, everything else is sorted other than carbs.

Thanks!

Eddie C.

66 Corvair Corsa Coupe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2020 04:58PM by MattNall.

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 21, 2020 05:10PM

If you can afford it EFI is the only way to go since you aren't worried about being original.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 113 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 21, 2020 05:13PM

You are in the SF Bay area... too damp there.. Get ahold of Mel's Vairmart in Santa Clara

Here's his info [www.google.com]

He's got the parts and expertise to get that engine running right! And he's close by!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: oldqmguy ()
Date: September 21, 2020 05:29PM

I just purchased the Ted Brown EFI Kit for my 1967 4-Door Monza!

The next few weeks will be interesting as I figure out how to do "my" custom installation!

I will take pictures and do a report on the final setup.

In answer to your question: EFI is the only way to go!!

Dale winking smiley

Dale E. Smiley CPBE
Life Member The Society of Broadcast Engineers
RETIRED Broadcast Engineer
CERTIFIED CORVAIR NUT
CORSA/Circle City Corvairs/Corvair Performance Group
Avon, Indiana
WB9SFF
1967 4-Door Monza PG!

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: ecar66corsa ()
Date: September 21, 2020 05:41PM

Thanks for the input! Ill look into Mel's Vairmart, but the carb and other parts would need to still be purchased. The cost to switch back to the Rochester and doing the 390 cfm center mount are about the same.

As Joel suggested, I'm inclined to go with an EFI conversion. I like the Ted Brown EFI kit but it looks like the 140 4 throttle body injection is being redesigned and is not available to order, and there is no expected date.

Any other thoughts or suggestions as or information as what may be the best options?

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: SpyderMan ()
Date: September 21, 2020 05:46PM

I have been running Ted's system sense the first of the year. It is a game changer for drivability and reliability. I am coming up on 5000 miles this year on the system. Would recommend.

Sam Russell
Durham NC
1962 Monza Wagon Ted Brown EFI Gen II
1964 Spyder coupe


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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: SpyderMan ()
Date: September 21, 2020 05:48PM

You could run it as a two carb motor for now and add the secondaries at a later date. I would call Ted and he can let you know the best way forward.

Sam Russell
Durham NC
1962 Monza Wagon Ted Brown EFI Gen II
1964 Spyder coupe


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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: ecar66corsa ()
Date: September 21, 2020 06:01PM

Great thanks Dale and Sam! I have sent him an email two weeks ago and haven't gotten a response (I completely understand he's probably very busy with work/life and this is his side project). Ill give him a call as suggested and see what he thinks.

Eddie C.

66 Corvair Corsa Coupe

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: September 21, 2020 07:50PM

"... other than having the wrong carburetor there are a few vacuum leaks, ..."

"... pretty much nothing done could get the car to run anything short or mediocrely even after taking it to a carb mechanic to have it tuned."


The leaks are at least a part of the problem but if a "carb mechanic" worked on the car why didn't he remedy them??? Sorry to be so direct but it is a bit like saying 'my shoes fall off when I run' and then noting that the laces are too short to tie. Deactivating the secondaries would limit the carb to about 40% of its CFM and for general driving diminish the "too big" aspect.

Is the timing set properly? My modern daily driver has a crank triggered ignition, the balancer came loose, messing up the keyway and retarded the timing. The slowness was pronounced and the car took forever to get up to speed. I'd say fix any vacuum leak, do a compression test, set the timing and insure the advance is working. Give more info about the car. The things I speak of are generic in general but there are people far more versed in the Corvair here that can help you the more you can help them with information. Here's to hoping you can get it all sorted out.

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: September 21, 2020 07:51PM

Nobody said it so I will and I've been at this 55 years

Stock carburetors work JUST FINE when properly adjusted.

Find a good Corvair carburetor guy...davemotohead is the best.

Obviously Mel at Vairmart has a good Corvair carburetor person.

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: ecar66corsa ()
Date: September 21, 2020 08:29PM

Thanks wittsend i agree. The mechanic did deactivate the secondaries to help alleviate the issues and make it "drivable" but it was still running rich, as far as the vacuum leaks that he didn't fix just goes to show he wasn't a good carb mechanic (previous owner took it to him before the sale). Ive started addressing the vacuum leaks, the compression in all cylinders are all about 130psi. The previous owner had the crank case breather hose plugged up with a cork for whatever reason (which the "mechanic" did not catch either and blew the valve cover gaskets, which i will be replacing when the parts from clarks come in, so until then I've not tried running the engine as it just leaks out oil. I have not checked the timing, or the advance but will as soon as i replace the gaskets.


Even if I go the EFI rout I will need to source some stock Rochester carbs for a 66, any advise as to who may have a whole set up? I know clarks has them but at a high cost.

Eddie C.

66 Corvair Corsa Coupe

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: September 21, 2020 08:42PM

ecar66corsa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> Even if I go the EFI rout I will need to source some stock Rochester carbs for a 66, any advise as to who may have a whole set up? I know clarks has them but at a high cost.


If you are wanting stock Rochestors for temporary purposes before going to EFI, then pay up to get a good set. If you are going to use those for throttle bodies, dont pay up for good ones, get some junkers that have good butterflys, all the stuff inside the carb gets ripped out anyways, and theres some internal holes that get plugged. Purpose built throttle bodies cost a lot of money but junked rochestors that get used for cores, arent that expensive and will work fine for EFI if converted for that use.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: September 21, 2020 10:33PM

Kevin is correct.
But I might add, according to Ted's EFI website, he wants EARLY carb bases for the EFI conversion.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: solo2r ()
Date: September 21, 2020 11:27PM

EFI is the way to go if you can afford it. No more fumes, much improved drivability, with an option of ignition control, way better performance.

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: September 22, 2020 04:43AM

Yes, on the early carb cores! They have less holes to plug and the venturi is taken out for a smooth bore so the restriction is gone and this also gives a mild performance increase.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: TedBrown ()
Date: September 22, 2020 06:18AM

Hi Eddie and all,

Looked through my email and didn't see anything. I try to be pretty responsive on email as no one likes to be hanging....please resend

I currently do not currently sell a center-mount setup, but working for one for a friend and his 140. It uses 4 injectors (1 in each runner) and the Carb/Throttle body for the air control. A center-mount TBI would be simple, but I wanted to get away from some of the issues that the center mount carb has. When it comes to TBI fueling, the TBI acts like a fuel pressured Carb.

THE 140 EFI: Our EFI uses 4 carb bases with our TBI conversion. All 4 TBIs open at the same time and you can use your 2 Carb throttle shaft to control it. The fuel lines are difficult to build and we are redesigning for easier production and installation.
140 Production will resume 1 Nov 2020 as I am having minor surgery and will be out of pocket most of October 2020. Want a kit minus fuel lines.... give me a call.




2 TBI: You can use the 2 TBI setup on your 140 with block-off Plates which we have. You will notice a nice running car with better fuel mileage, but you didn't buy a 140 for that!!! To me, the 140 engine with 2 TBIs was a really good running car with the power I wanted.

LIKE YOUR COIL...YOU CAN KEEP YOUR COIL.Sound familiar? Our standard kits have a VAG (Volkswagon/Audi/Golf) coil and are really efficient and work well. The only issue is that it doesn't look like a coil. We have been test running 4 engines with GM ignition module to control the standard Delco-Remy Coil and also "Flamethrower" 40k coils. The main advantage is looks as the price of the module cancels out any savings. So far testing has not revealed any issues and yes it's still computer-controlled. You can also have your own ignition system with our EFI... just disconnect the module and your set.



As Ken Hand stated, I want early bases because they are in low demand for carbs and have fewer holes....no other reason. I can use lates also without issue.

Ted's Opinion: I do want to build a center-mount kit, but I think using TBI would create some of the same issues as center-mounted carbs. Currently, I have to hack up and weld the injector bungs into the runners and will destroy any plating that it has. I will know in the next couple of months how the 140 center-mount with injector will do as his engine is almost ready.

I also agree with Phil, but most of us are not carb experts or know anyone that is. Also, EFI is more than just fueling!!

Thanks guys for letting me peddle and explain my wares.

Ted

**NEW** Dual TBI KITS are now available through Clarks Corvair
**DIS and 4 TBI units are available through Corvair-EFI.com
Ted Brown
Anderson, SC
[www.Corvair-EFI.com]
Brown Injection Facebook
68 Monza Convert Auto - EFI
61 Loadside - PGlide - EFI
61 Rampside - 4 speed - EFI
61 Greenbrier 4 speed - EFI
61 Greenbrier 4 Speed - Bad Motor



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2020 06:24AM by TedBrown.

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: KenHenry ()
Date: September 22, 2020 06:59AM

I'm working on a center-mount system with injectors in the runners as well. I'm using the TB from a late 90s Dodge truck and injectors/injector caps from a Ducati Monster. All of the parts are easily found for not much $$ on ebay, but it does takes a lot of time and patience to track things down and do the fabrication. Getting your center-mount carb fixed, or even tracking down original carbs, will be way easier and cheaper. But not as fun!

I'm running Megasquirt2 to control my ignition right now, with one of Ted's trigger wheels and a Ford EDIS system, and it works fantastic. I wasn't expecting much change since I basically copied the specs for the 140 distributor and vacuum advance, but it really woke up the engine. Maybe the old distributor was out of specs.

2EA6FDBE-EC1E-466A-8413-1C57935E0F80 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

CACED9B7-C549-4000-9654-C68D9C161B30 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

3285CCB8-A0DB-426E-B449-53AD30A8459A by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

919725EE-4AEE-47F5-BE8C-4BD02B401E75 by kenhenry_06268, on Flickr

Ken Henry, Rochester, NY USA
1965 Corvair Corsa
140 hp, 4 speed

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: September 22, 2020 07:40AM

Even with the Secondaries disabled a 600 CFM carburetor is big. Small venturis have better airflow which just works better for drivability. The airflow in big venturis could be described as lazy. Small venturis for driving around most of the time work good with more volume available with the Secondaries when the engine speed is already up.
One problem with center mount carburetors is the 18" of cold pipe and 3 turns the fuel/air mixture has to go through before entering the Intake valve. Lots of opportunity for the gas to drop out of the mixture and then reenter. They can be made to work but it's not ideal.
There was someone on here recently with a 350 CFM 2-barrel. I wouldn't expect that to work real well but I've never tried it.
In the grand scheme of things Holley carburetors are somewhat unsophisticated. I haven't tried any yet but a small Rochester Quadrajet or Carter (Edelbrock) AFB are some other options, I have some on the shelf but haven't found the time.

The 4 stock carburetors are good if they're all working okay. Sometimes it's hard to figure out which one is having problems. If you don't have anything, gathering all the linkage parts can be difficult besides the carburetors and fuel lines. It would be nice if someone kept the whole system together in a single box.

Sometimes the stock chassis linkage has trouble pushing open Secondaries which can be troubling.

Don't forget that there's a fair amount of chassis work with EFI fuel under pressure and such.

All 3 options are viable. My first question might be what carburetor fits on your manifold? Something smaller might be available to fit that's used rather than new, the V-8 guys are always going to something bigger. You might get something sorted for now with what you have, it would have resale value.

Don't get me wrong, I think EFI is cool and the wave of the future, I'm just looking at the other possibilities as well.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: ecar66corsa ()
Date: September 22, 2020 11:58AM

Thanks Everyone!

Ted I resent my email.

Ken awesome work, the EFI center mount looks good and has me thinking about that!

I think Im sold on going the EFI route, which year/model early carbs should I be looking for?

Another thing brought up was resale value/originality. The car has been repainted (including bumpers/trim), different wheels, center mount carb set up, dual break MS, other than that it is very clean, no rust (yes bondo), and original everywhere else. Would doing EFI really effect resale value that much?? I am not too worried about originality since its not completely original to begin with, but that being said it would be easy to get it back to original with getting the carbs setup, and wheels (paint is harder). To be honest Im younger (recently turned 24), and have been enamored by Corvairs for a while now, have been doing a lot of research and searching to get the right car. I found this one mostly sorted, mostly original in great condition, for a such a great price (under my saved budget) that I could do the EFI.I love it already, its such a cool unique car and somewhat rare car, Im just so excited to drive it that I haven't considered resale value only drivability and fun. I don't want to or think i'll ever want to sell it (if I did it would be to my dad who really likes the car too and may be just as excited as me about it) but I understand that things in life come up and change and I should be realistic in considering its value and how my choices influence the value.

Since it might come up I'll address it now. I am more or less mechanically/ technically inclined, I don't mind putting in work on the vehicle I actually enjoy it.That being said my skills and knowledge are not enough to do all the work that may be needed, but enough to learn. However im lucky enough that my dad is an experienced mechanist and mechanic of 30+ years, has a shop with two car lifts, lathe and mill where the car will be worked on. He's had plenty of old chevy's so he really likes the center mount set up, but we understand its more European than American in engine design which isn't an issue since he works with modern cars Japanese, America, and European. If I wasn't fortunate enough already our neighbor is an older retired mechanic and hotrodder who is a wealth of knowledge and expertise (when he's not trying to get me to do an LS swap or any other crazy modifications). Interestingly enough my neighbor really likes the Corsa too as his father owned one and was the first car he learned to drive in 65. So with all the resources at my disposal I was not put off with the carb issues when purchasing 9especially with the deal I got) or about doing an EFI conversion but only about getting the most accurate information and opinions to make sure the job is done correctly.

Sorry for the rant!


Thanks again everyone for your help and input

Eddie C.

66 Corvair Corsa Coupe

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Re: Fix Centermount carbs vs EFI vs stock carbs
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: September 22, 2020 12:38PM

One thing to be said about the Ted Brown EFI, is that it will not adversely affect resale value. (At least I wouldn't think it would.)
Since it is pretty much a bolt-on unit, returning to original specs, is not difficult.
The same applies to the centermount EFI.
If you went to a Port Fuel Injection system (which would require Head modifications), them resale would be more of an issue.
As for the crazy neighbor, encourage him to get his own Corvair and the he can trick it out all he wants. thumbs up grinning smiley

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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