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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: July 21, 2020 07:31AM

Did I miss something? I only see a small chip in the crankcase in the picture. It doesn't look like anything that would matter. I wouldn't automatically assume the crank couldn't be saved. That Viton seal could have just failed because they are junk. I can't imagine a crank actually bending where it would cause a gap at the seal. I'm thinking that is a camera angle problem or optical illusion.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 21, 2020 08:48AM

That is #4 rod journal turning away from us at the top. I'm sure the crank journal bashed that rod into the crankcase at the bottom out of our view. I'd bet a dollar that it ruined the crankcase and a quarter that it took the cam out too. I think that little chip at the top is only the beginning of the chain of events. Of course I could be wrong.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: July 21, 2020 05:31PM

You're probably right, I was just going by what could be seen.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 22, 2020 09:43PM

Sorry about delayed responses. Been in contact with Jim on next steps.

As Jim mentions between working full time and having 2 daily drivers suddenly needing attention the Corvair is sidelined for the moment. I should be able to pull heads this weekend but it’s supposed to be another hot and humid weekend. No A/C in the garage and the garage door takes all the heat from the sun at about noon on and pours it into the garage.

Miserable. Did rear brake pads and shoes on my ‘08 charger as an emergency repair during that kind of heat a few days ago. Not looking forward to another round.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 25, 2020 07:14PM

Folks I promised an update as I get theme.

Was able to remove the head from the side with the offending piston. It looks like the head is fine. Other items to note is the push rods for the middle offending cylinder were bent (not good).

Note the lifters for that middle cylinder are out of position as well. Also not good. The aluminum is cracked and broken allowing the lifters to jam up in there bore. Can't move them around at all. Cam is likely toasted too as most have suggested.

Haven't removed the jugs yet but what I have seen so far isn't reassuring.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: Vairismo ()
Date: July 25, 2020 10:57PM

Sounds like the engine case is toast. nothing like staring fresher with a replacement one. Chances are that your camshaft is tweaked some as well. Might want to be on the lookout for a good used running engine. Less work that way IMO.

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: July 25, 2020 11:03PM

Looking at the pictures, it becomes clear that the piston began letting go while still on the up stroke.
That piston kissed the head at least once!

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 27, 2020 07:22AM

Looking at #6 is that a stock cast GM piston with the notch pointing forward and the circle next to it? I wonder about the oil present.

Looking at #4 I see the circle but I don't see the notch.

I would scrape the carbon off the top of a piston in order to look for oversize stamping like .030 or other possible stampings. In one of the previous pictures a skirt looks like a GM cast piston.

I would agree the piston bounced off the squish, started back down the cylinder and then the crank journal came around again and smashed whatever was left of the rod into the crankcase right at the lifter journals.

If they were good replacement pistons I might consider replacing just one but I hardly ever reuse stock cast pistons because of their propensity for cracking at the ring groove. I have reused stock pistons back in the day when daily driving Corvairs on a slim budget but it's different when it's your own stuff.

Revisiting #6 I wonder if oil was getting past the rings or the valve guides. I would at least remove the valve springs and check the valve fit in the guide especially Intake.

Since the piston likely bounced off #4 I would certainly examine that chamber in the head very carefully. The slamming against the cylinder on the bottom may have been hard on the head gasket surface. Did you have them flycut last time? Stock .032 steel head gaskets?

I don't know how to explain bent pushrods. Maybe valves open when the piston piston came up? Does it take more than one kiss to make a smile in the piston top? If the piston hit the open valves it's another reason to examine them very closely before trying to use the head again. They're only open at the same time once and not very far at that time.

I know a guy in Rochester with a somewhat rugged Corsa convertible 140 looking to move it along as he will be unable to do anything with it. I don't know anything about it's runnability.

I've got a few 140 Manual engines but I don't know about them without some time. If your heads are good I could certainly fill a few boxes with all the other parts. I wouldn't think any bits had time to get into your oil pump but it's something to check.

A Corvair is expensive to build once you start buying pistons and boring cylinders. Cam and gear. How far to go with the heads or if you should is a topic all by itself.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 27, 2020 08:13AM

I did do some measuring on the cylinder bores. They all measured at about 3.43 give or take a few thousands depending on where my caliper moved. This suggests to me the cylinders were all standard size given what I have found.

as far as bits and pieces go, when I drained the oil I didn't see any bits in there, but that doesn't mean they didn't get captured by the pan magnet or other places like the oil pump like Jim mentioned.

Definitely need a new case. Picking up yet another car for the house as a donor is not in the cards. We already have 5 vehicles at our house, two of which are project cars (if you now include the Corvair). So it's going to have to be engine or parts of an engine.

Yeah building an engine is not cheap, but what parts of our projects ever really are? If I were looking for a return on the investment, that went way out the window years ago. My '54 Ford project I am a little more aware of an ROI but the Corvair is an all-in thing.

So for me, a new case and building up from there is my most probably course here. Transfer what is good over, and trashing anything else. As you can see in the picture, the head seems like it made it through with minimal issues. I'll probably do the valve guides as a "while I am at it" kind of thing.

I may find more along the way, but I have resigned myself to a longer project and that's ok.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: July 27, 2020 01:17PM

Dave - PM sent.

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 28, 2020 06:46AM

dedwinson wrote:
"I'll probably do the valve guides as a "while I am at it" kind of thing."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I'm not sending heads out of state for deep seats and such my local guy does guide liners a lot of times. Maybe I'm timid but I'm just not a fan of disturbing the guide to aluminum fit if not necessary.
5000 miles since last time is not a lot. I might remove the valve springs for a feel of the valves in the guides with particular attention to #4 where the pushrods were bent.

I like that you're determining a philosophy regarding your course of action. It's hard to know where to draw the line.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 28, 2020 07:45AM

Thanks to forum members I have a line on a some of the parts I will need for this project.

Honestly I hear the theme song to the Six Million Dollar man running through my head.

"We can rebuild him. We can make him better than he was, stronger faster....." cue the music.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 30, 2020 08:30AM

dedwison wrote:
"Sorry about delayed responses. Been in contact with Jim on next steps."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

66vairman wrote:
"Dave - PM sent.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can look at it two ways.
I just sorta got the screw job or
I snoozed and I loosed.
Some solace in the fact I was thinking about a crankcase, crankshaft, camshaft and rod for about what the crankcase with shipping cost. Of course individual components are a lot more than a package deal.
It's still been fun throwing conjectures out about the autopsy.
Back to the garage to work on a different 140.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 30, 2020 08:20PM

I accidentally upset a person I have a huge amount of respect for. I sent a PM with a private apology but wanted to let the public know no ill intent.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 31, 2020 06:01AM

Sorry I get a little sensitive sometimes. It's all fair play.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: August 05, 2020 09:06AM

In an effort to keep folks updated on progress.............

This weekend i was able to strip the engine a bit more and develop a parts list. The last pictures showed the lifters on the cylinder in question were clearly out of position, and we saw the connecting rod on that cylinder actually jammed under the crank.

I started to remove the pulley from the front of the engine and noticed it moved quite a bit on the crank. Check the picture out. The pulley was torn right at the keyway and nearly sheared the woodruff key completely. Looks like another crank pulley is in the works.

After removing pulley, front assembly etc. and a few of the cylinders I was able to at least move the crank around a bit to get the offending piston out. Yep some really nice damage you can see in the pic as well. The force of the rod coming down actually peened over the cylinder skirt and there is really no way that cylinder will ever be used again if it actually comes out. If it does come out it's going to destroy the mating surface of the cylinder to block so bad it will be beyond fixing.

When looking into the engine with the damaged piston removed you can also see the force of the rod slamming into the bottom of the block hit the lifter bores so hard you can see a massive impact (sorry no pics) causing the lifter bores to break free and come out of alignment.

The sister cylinder on the opposite side has some skuffing on the skirt, probably from the piece of rod cap or the loose bearing bouncing around. It's relatively minor skuffing and I probably can salvage that one.

If you guys don't want updates, let me know.

Right now its a parts hunt with some local help. The objective here is to get the engine back in so I don't lose my spot in my winter storage facility. they only take cars that can move on their own and if you miss a year you have to go on their waiting list for the next year. Last year they wanted my car in October so i hear the tick tock of the clock. LOL

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: August 05, 2020 09:09AM

If you were wondering. that apparent crack on the piston at the wrist pin isn't a crack. it's a small dent where I tapped the piston out from the backside.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: August 05, 2020 10:21AM

dedwinson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In an effort to keep folks updated on progress.............
> . . . . . . . . . .
> . . . . . . . . .
> . . . . . . . .
> Right now its a parts hunt with some local help. The objective here is to get the engine back in so I don't lose my spot in my winter storage facility. they only take cars that can move on their own and if you miss a year you have to go on their waiting list for the next year. Last year they wanted my car in October so i hear the tick tock of the clock. LOL

Sounds like a "High Demand" storage facility, that is very popular.
I guess the question is, how much is it worth to you to keep your place in line?
Do they have a Dress-Code? I mean, is it exclusive, and they only store "NICE" cars?
Just thinking that if it is something you really care about, and it is worth it to you, you could pick up a $200 Craigslist beater car that can barely move under its own power, and store it for one season, just to keep your place in line.
Maybe?

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: doug6423 ()
Date: August 05, 2020 10:25AM

Keep the updates coming please. thumbs up

I'm not very experienced with Corvairs, so it helps me to learn. smiling smiley

Thanks Dave! smileys with beer

Doug
65 Monza
Cincy, OH

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: August 05, 2020 11:39AM

to answer the question on storage:

Most of the locations that have indoor storage around here have a high demand if they are priced reasonable. I store mine at the local county fairgrounds and they use the building for storage. Everything from campers to boats etc. They charge by the foot and for storage October to April it's $200. It is "dead" storage so no in-out ability. It is unheated, but if you have a car cover and bring it with you they will put it on (yep I do). There isn't a dress code, they just want to be able to move the cars around etc. You park your car in the fall and they move it into storage. In the spring the move it out to the street/parking lot. That means they are starting it up and moving it.

I hear of some places that don't fill, but they are way more expensive and I mean double the price at least.

My wife tells me that if we really have to keep it in the garage over the winter then we can, but that adds another set of issues about where to store snow blowers etc. if the space isn't made free.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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