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Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 13, 2020 07:36AM

So I have been away from this board for a while. Mostly because I have been enjoying my Corvair, Moved from one house to another, a few kids got married, and a new restoration project started on a '54 Ford Customline (I know sacrilege on this board).

Thought I would post an update on why I am back to working (not not driving) on my Corvair. Father's day we had our kids over and my in-laws for a little grilling. all social distancing in play here, but we decided to go on a little ride in the corvair to pick up some items for dinner.

I was driving home with my father inlaw and my oldest son in the car when I was rounding the corner a mile or so from home and downshifted JUST a little too soon and BOOM. Car dies. Turn the key and the starter tries to engage but clearly the engine isn't rotating. CRAP... Tried a rolling start, but no go. Way not good.

So we start pushing the car home and I am at the back end of the car. We crest a small hill and the car (with a driver) starts rolling and before I could stand up completely I lose balance, face planting myself into the pavement. Nice cut above my right eye ruined glasses etc. Over the course of the next week develop a shiner in both eyes.

In the end bruised knees, bruised hands, shiner but in general decent shape.

Fast forward to last night. I finally manage to drop the engine (too damn hot here in MN to work on it before now). I separate the trans from the engine and my worst fears are realized. It's not the clutch (not that I couldn't use one). Transmission seems fine as I manually run the gears and everything is moving.

I try to turn over the engine manually and it won't budge. SOB. I f'n trashed the engine. I don't know how bad yet, but a complete tear down is in my very near future. I suspect a bent connecting rod, minimally, but am now prepared for a much more significant repair job.

Not looking for help just YET, but thought I would let you all have a laugh at my Tim Taylor moment.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 13, 2020 07:57AM

Is "downshifted JUST a little too soon" a bit of an understatement?
Is removing the crankcase cover your next move?

I just had a guy pick up the Corvair engine for his 53 Ford Roadster with 61 Corvair rear suspension. He started with a 4-door Ford. It was at Back To The 50s a few years ago and I'm sure it will be back next year.

[corvaircenter.com]

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: July 13, 2020 08:04AM

Yep, what Jim said. I probably would have pulled the carburetors,turkey roaster and blower cover to have a peek inside before I would have pulled the drivetrain, but that's just me.

'29 Ford Model A Tudor
'61 700 Lakewood 110 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.
'70 Dodge Challenger R/T 440 4 speed

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 08:05AM by Wagon Master.

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 13, 2020 08:14AM

I know downshift early... Was coming from a 55mph zone looking to downshift to cruise around a roundabout. Can't remember exactly but I think I must have gone from 4th to 2nd. I think went from 4th to neutral for just a few seconds, then attempted to drop into second at too high a speed.

I didn't even let out the clutch, i just was getting ready. Felt the gears NOT mesh and stopped the shift, but by then it was too late. I wouldn't have thought simply putting it into gear would bugger the engine since they technically aren't connected at that point, but reality says otherwise.

Yep crank cover is next on the list after I get the engine on the stand. right now it's just on my cart. I was sincerely hoping it was a trashed clutch making the repair easy from the cart only.

On the bright side (if there is one) I uncovered some things that needed to be addressed anyhow, and a few things that I should do that are easier with the engine out anyhow, but didn't justify pulling the engine.

1.) Found the transmission was being held in place by 2 bolts not 3 and one of the 2 was just a little loose. I did put all 3 in when I finished the resto a few years ago.

2.) Pass side muffler strap broken and needs to be fixed

3.) Driver side bellows failed open

4.) Really should replace or grease the blower bearing

5.) Seriously thinking of converting from dual to single exhaust. Also should replace exhaust pipes anyway. I "made do" with the old ones. Now older and have more resources to play with............

A few other things I can't think of right now, but with a more extensive rebuild in the near future an engine stand is a must.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 13, 2020 08:21AM

I know pulling the roaster etc. off could have been done with the engine in place, but remember I was thinking clutch. Well I was hoping clutch to be honest. I had a similar thing happen when I was driving my mom's Pinto when I was 17. yes racing a bit which was dumb anyway in a Pinto. Did a similar kind of thing around a corner and blew the clutch. So that's where my mind was for this incidence.

In any case, now that I am pretty sure I did something to the internals of the engine it was still a better plan to drop the engine out to do the work on a stand even if the diagnosis could be done while the engine was in place. Anything I will find will mean a larger repair where the engine out is going to be an easier road anyhow.

Basically I end up at the same place I am in now either way.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: July 13, 2020 08:30AM

Pull the Flywheel next!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 13, 2020 08:35AM

Yeah that makes sense as well. If I have any major work to do, having that off now rather than on the stand will make things easier.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: corventure Dave ()
Date: July 13, 2020 10:20AM

Oh what a bummer!angry smiley

I have had two instances in the past 45 years where the engine just suddenly stopped. However in my cases they still turned over but would not start.
Both failures were from shattered aftermarket cast cam gears. Never had an issue with NOS, but I switched to Fail Safe billet cam gears long ago and have never had an issue.
BTW... these both were with Powerglide trans vehicles.

Likely not your issue but will be interesting to hear what you find.

Corventure Dave

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: tboltkc ()
Date: July 13, 2020 10:20AM

Good luck Dave, that's a bad feeling.

I hope you find it's not as bad as you fear.

-Travis


'65 Corsa; '63 Convertible; '62 Wagon; '65 4 Door
Heart of America Corvair Owners Assocation (Kansas City, MO)
[www.hacoa.org]

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: July 13, 2020 12:03PM

"I didn't even let out the clutch, i just was getting ready. Felt the gears NOT mesh and stopped the shift, but by then it was too late. I wouldn't have thought simply putting it into gear would bugger the engine since they technically aren't connected at that point, but reality says otherwise."

IF this is exactly what happened, then YOU did NOT cause the problem.
It would have been just one of those mysteries of bad timing.
Foot still in on the clutch? Not something you could have done, even IF you were throwing the shifter from 4th to 2nd.
Yes, I would look inside.
BUT, at the same time, I would be asking here, and looking on CL, for a local USED running Engine.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: July 13, 2020 12:48PM

Try rotating engine in opposite direction (CW) with wrench/socket on crank pulley.

It might take just a bit of effort to begin the rotation.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC/V8 Registry

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: July 13, 2020 02:16PM

Take off the flywheel and see if engine rotates! Recently a Vair driven into the container and shipped to Australia... was locked up when retrieved!

Turned out bolt from Clutch fell out and jammed! so simple!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: July 13, 2020 02:18PM

I've seen the flywheel locked up by an EXPLODING clutch disk on a 4 to 1 accidental down shift (not Corvair, but a new and expensive car with someone who was just learning to shift and was not being careful and was too enthusiastic).

Not saying this is your problem, but your description doesn't sound like an engine over rev issue.

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: July 13, 2020 02:22PM

Now it doesn't sound like over-revving. I'm curious to see what you find.

Just what do you mean by "BOOM. Car dies."

I broke a crankshaft once and it still ran but made a lot of noise. When I turned the harmonic balancer there was a lag in each direction before the flywheel started turning. I don't remember any other damage but then with a race engine I was always throwing stuff away.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 13, 2020 02:35PM

Jim,

I may be knocking on your door sometime in the future. You are just "up the road from me" in Farmington. LOL

I should know some more tonight. Weather is cooperating and the wife is working. Once I run a few errands I will pop the engine on the stand and see what we have cooking....

Removing the flywheel first of course. all 10 fingers and toes crossed!!

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 13, 2020 07:36PM

OK so didn't go as planned tonight. didn't have the right sized bolts to put the engine on my stand. Must have used them for the other transmission on another stand in the shed.

I did remove the flywheel. Engine still didn't rotate. 2 of the flywheel bolts appear to be stripped, IE the threads are all squished out like they have been rubbing on something. Looks like new bolts.

Flywheel seems fine. What looks bad is the bell housing seal. It appears severely worn/torn up on the right side. Check the pic. No apparent leaks on the engine side, some small ooze from the trans snout. Transmission side is damp but engine side dry. Looks like another seal for the drive shaft.

With all the stores closing by 8pm I couldn't make it out in time to get new bolts so mounting on the engine stand will be tomorrow. I did manage to at least get my mockup small block ford engine off the stand though in prep for the corvair to take it's place..

more to come tomorrow,

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




Attachments:
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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: July 13, 2020 08:35PM

Does the flywheel flange look off-center to the seal thus the seal damage on one side? If so that is likely..., well I don't want to be the one to say it.

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: TerribleTed ()
Date: July 13, 2020 09:18PM

Broken crank? Should not be off center. The seal looks like a clark's Viton seal. many people have had issues with them leaking. when you replace it use the standard. This gap in the seal would pour oil during operation. I suspect a major internal catastrophe that stopped the engine. this seal will not leak except in operation as the oil level is not high enough sitting still to get to the seal. Pull the bellhousing and top block cover off first. Once this is done I expect you will find the issue.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Avid Corvair hobbiest since 1984.
I have personally performed ground up restoration on over 20 Corvairs.
I currently work full time at restoring and repairing Corvairs.
Located in the Atlanta Georgia area.
[www.facebook.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 09:19PM by TerribleTed.

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: July 13, 2020 09:23PM

Viton Crank Seal?
C493V

edit.
sorry to waste space here.
Ted posted while I was busy verifying numbers.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2020 09:25PM by American Mel.

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Re: Trashed engine? - dumbass move
Posted by: dedwinson ()
Date: July 14, 2020 06:22AM

yep the seal was a Clarks seal. Put it in myself when I rebuilt the engine 6 or 7 years ago.

Dave Edwinson
Doing Vairly well in Minnesota
'66 Vert 140HP




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