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64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: troy.w ()
Date: May 03, 2020 12:37PM

Hi folks,

This is going to be a loaded question/topic, but I'm trying to learn, so here goes:

I want to keep my '64 Spyder a turbo car, but I also don't want to deal with a finicky system or turbo lag.

One fella told me to use the smaller 60-63 crank/block to increase the rpms. I don't want to do that.

Based on what I have read so far, the two most attractive solutions are putting two carbs after the turbo, modifying the turbocharger itself, or swapping to EFI..

Maybe, I should use a more modern turbocharger? Thanks guys..

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: May 03, 2020 12:45PM

There is an old saying,
"Opinions are like Belly-Buttons. EVERYBODY has one!"
You just opened a can of (Hyper-Active)Worms.
There are as many opinions about Corvair Turbos around here as there are Corvair owners around here.
Be prepared for answers from people who do not have, nor ever have had a Turbo car to respond to your question!
I will be quiet now and watch from the sidelines, my Spyder ownership was too many years ago to be of benefit here.
grinning smiley smiling bouncing smiley cool smiley

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry
[corvaircenter.com]

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: May 03, 2020 01:23PM

Buy Ted's EFI with spark control if it is available and be done with it or go with something more exotic.
A massive improvement can be had with electronic spark control alone.
I wouldn't do a blow through carburetor setup for what you are wanting. That's probably more work than EFI.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 03, 2020 03:47PM

Troy buy and READ this book..then you'll know what to do.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: Gwrodzhi ()
Date: May 03, 2020 04:51PM

I had my 64 turbo for about 3 years. Before you go through all of that I would recommend going through what you already have. With a good carb and turbo rebuild and a bit of tubing my car was really not that finicky. I had to adjust timing between dead of winter and the summer to prevent pinging. What i told myself was that these cars did work when they were new. If the car was hard to start or ran poorly there was something wrong. I went through each system and ended up with a car that really wasn't all that finicky. Just something to think about before spending thousands on something that you will still have to tune.

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: May 03, 2020 06:02PM

three things that make all the difference in the world on our turbo cars.
The stock carburetor is way too small. The compressor on the 64 is too small.
The timing curve is way wrong. Fix those three things and you got a hotrod!
A weber or mikuni + the late F-flow compressor and housing on your B-flow exhaust
housing and turbine, plus a 110 or 95 distributor with a safegard for boost retard, or more sophisticated programmable timing + safegard will make an enormous difference in power. When I had my 45dcoe weber and 95 distributor + safegard with the same F/B turbo hybrid, I would get 10psi in first, 15 in second, 18 in third.
Yes it woke it up big time compared to stock!!
A more sophisticated timing strategy like can be done with a CB performance black box were "vacuum advance" and boost retard curves can be different for every rpm makes for even more fun!
If you are okay with building it a little at a time, get your too small of compressor changed to the F-flow housing and compressor. This way, when you get a bigger carb for it, the extra flow afforded by the carb will be better taken advantage of by the higher flowing compressor. Better have a better, more consistent method of boost retard though! The stock boost retard is all at once
and takes it out from a too low of a base timing, resulting in a bunch of fake boost... the boost comes up from overly retarding the timing, so theres not a lot of power... then the late advance kicks in and the race is lost, but you are catching up! all other turbo cars take the timing out a little at a time, and so as the boost comes up, the power is a lot more in line with the boost.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: troy.w ()
Date: May 03, 2020 09:05PM

Thanks Matt--book is on the way

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: troy.w ()
Date: May 03, 2020 09:07PM

Kevin,

That is some great information. I'm going to look at the links attached. Very nice photos! Thanks!

Troy W

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: solo2r ()
Date: May 04, 2020 08:11AM

Even a Safeguard alone is a big improvement!

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: srt ()
Date: May 05, 2020 08:14AM

excellent resource material. I have it somewhere in my garage. maybe time to clean out my garage again!

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: troy.w ()
Date: May 06, 2020 08:24AM

Does anyone have a link to a more in depth description of the modification to using an F-flow compressor mated to a b-flow exhaust?

I have a '64 stock turbo intake and exhaust minus the carburetor. (Not going to use the stock carb)

Also,

Why have a heard that 95 heads are better than 110 heads for turbo performance?

Troy W
Albuquerque



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2020 08:26AM by troy.w.

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: thewolfe ()
Date: May 06, 2020 09:01AM

Assuming you have the correct turbo for a 64, all you need is a late model compressor and compressor housing along with whatever other parts, gaskets, seals etc. you would need when doing a standard reseal of a turbo(those parts are all the same for all years). The shop manual tells how to do that.

Nate Wolfe
Portland OR
65 Corsa 180

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: v8vair ()
Date: May 06, 2020 09:55AM

95 heads have the better combustion chamber. For a 64 the 62/63 Turbo heads would be a better choice, they fit the 64 cylinders and have the drain back tube and thermistor provision.

1965 Crown V8 Racer
1964 Bill Thomas Monza Replica Racer
1964 Spyder Street Car
1979 Mazda RX7

Mike Levine

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: troy.w ()
Date: May 06, 2020 10:26AM

Thanks Nate.

Mike,

My original cylinder barrels are trashed, so I'm going to get a set of full fin barrels and forged pistons. I "think" both my 64 turbo block and the (either 95 or 110) heads will have to be milled to accept these new thicker walled barrels from Clark's.

My next question is, can the 110 heads be modified to have the same (or better) combustion chamber as the 95's ?

This may sound strange, but I want to keep all the engine parts original and matching, if I can. Everything on the car has matching numbers as of now. I don't mind modding the parts, however.

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: May 06, 2020 11:03AM

I'm using 110 heads, but I octane cut the pistons

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: May 06, 2020 11:13AM

If you use 95 or 110 heads the Clark's cylinders fit them.
If you want to keep the numbers right you have to use '64 heads. You can weld up the chambers and cut them to whatever you like.
No block machining required either.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2020 11:14AM by joelsplace.

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: troy.w ()
Date: May 06, 2020 11:35AM

How do they produce thicker walled cylinders, while keeping the same CID, without making the OD of the cylinder bigger?

Troy

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: Marco_a_p ()
Date: May 06, 2020 01:10PM

They are probably machined smaller on the OD of the bottom end where there are no fins and where the piston ring never reach.

Marco
A 2nd Gen Monza Wagon, a 2nd Gen GB 8door, a 2nd Gen (61's were 1st Gen) R/s and a 62nd Gen Turbo coupe..

Hanging out with the scorpions, king snakes, road runners, coyotes and quails In the southern desert of the silver state
Mesquite NV 89024

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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: May 06, 2020 01:12PM

Up until 1964 the portion of the cylinder that fits into the head had a smaller OD and narrower gasket surface the ID stays the same. If that is what you are asking.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: 64 turbo design and mods
Posted by: troy.w ()
Date: May 10, 2020 02:27PM

Alright, thank you fellas--

Next Questions:

1) Anyone ever tried a more modern turbocharger in place of the stock or stock/modified ones?

2) Anyone have a LM compressor side of the turbo they want to get rid of?

3) what kind of wastegate do people install (i'm not sure I understand the function of the wastegate yet-seems like it is essentially an overpressure or blow-off valve)

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