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Progression Ignition
Posted by: edconnolly ()
Date: April 18, 2020 11:11AM

Who is using or plans to use the Progression Ignition programmable distributor in a turbocharged motor? See progressionignition.com

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: April 18, 2020 01:36PM

I believe most turbo guys around here are using the CB Performance Black Box.
> > Black Box < <

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: April 21, 2020 12:09PM

Fancy. I do like the idea that it programs through Bluetooth. I considered the Black Box but I finally rejected it because I was worried about computer compatibility. Black Box systems attach to a computer using a plug (serial port) that hasn't been included on most laptops in 15 years. I also decided I couldn't afford even the $260 for it.

I'm thinking of going with a more affordable option:

Mallory Hyfire 6 Series 6853M

It doesn't come with retard control, but I can just keep the old analog one on my distributor, correct? At least, that was my thinking.

____________________________________________

Eric C. Player, Porterville, CA, USA (Seriously! It's the USA out here!)
MEMBER: CORSA National, Central Coast CORSA, South Coast CORSA, Vintage CORSA, Sfba CORSA, and the San Joaquin Valley Corvair Club.
THEN:
1965 Monza 110, Canary Yellow
1965 Corsa 180 Turbo, Red
1966 Monza 110, Purple
1967 Monza 140, Red
1966 500 110, Black; nicknamed "Shadow"
1965 Monza 110, Camaro Yellow; nicknamed "Silver"
NOW:
1966 Corsa 180 Turbo, Blue; nicknamed "Bluvair"

"He cautioned me not to take notes. It would not have helped if I had, as he would start a paragraph with, 'It is therefore obvious. . .'
and go on from there to matters which may have been obvious to him and God but to no one else."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, character of Daniel B. Davis, 'The Door Into Summer.'

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: April 21, 2020 12:23PM

Have they gone up that much? I paid $179.95 for my CB Performance Black Box in November.
Just clicked the link and they are $199.95.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2020 12:24PM by joelsplace.

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: April 21, 2020 12:29PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Have they gone up that much? I paid $179.95 for my CB Performance Black Box in November.
> Just clicked the link and they are $199.95.


On sale for $199.95
Regular price, $229.95

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, 80hp, PG
'62 Monza Wagon, 4spd.
'63 Spyder,
'65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dually, approaching 400K
'03 Honda Del Sol
17'Terry

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: April 21, 2020 01:17PM

Eric,
The Mallory box is just a MSD box not a timing control at all.
The CB Performance box is just a timing control.
The only function they share in common is a rev limiter.
You can use the Black Box to control a Mallory box.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: Richard ()
Date: April 21, 2020 01:18PM

Getting back to the original post.

[progressionignition.com]

$529 with complete Corvair distributor and worth looking at.

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: April 21, 2020 01:44PM

I guess the price isn't that bad if you consider $200 for a Black Box, $90 for a trigger and then you still have an old distributor.
You do have to buy new plug wires to use the new distributor or spend extra ($15) for the cap that works with the stock wires.
Is this distributor based on the aftermarket one that Seth used to sell or is it their own design?
How does the size compare? I've heard the one Seth was selling was larger than the factory distributor and required modifications to the top shroud and possibly had clearance issues with A/C.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: April 21, 2020 02:27PM

The Progressive distributor is based on the same dist that I supplied. The internals are replaced with his design control system. As far as size, yeah it is a bit larger than the stock one, maybe 1/3 of the folks had to "clearance the upper shroud. But some of that was due to the position that had to be used to properly locate the vacuum advance. If that was removed, you have more flexibility on rotation. The unit will not clear the low-mount A/C compressors, but it will clear the high-mount units. I sell, and supply to several vendors, wire sets with the correct wire tips for the HEI style cap - And I charge the exact same price for them as for regular sets. I sell the racing distributors now. They have a magnetic pulse trigger that will plug directly into most CD Ignitions, like the Crane, MSD or Intellitronix. They can easily have the advance locked out to become a trigger for an EFI system.

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: April 21, 2020 04:13PM

Thanks Seth!

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: April 21, 2020 10:14PM

Yes, Thank you Seth. I will again express my gratitude that you hang around here.

Joel,

At $260 I was expressing what the Black Box would run me with California tax and shipping. It might come out a little less, or even a little more.

But I'm still a little confused. If the Mallory/MSD boxes do not control timing, what do they control? What is their purpose and why do so many people rave over their performance improvements?

Forgive these simple questions. While there is much that I "get" about the way the car works and what it needs, the inner workings and ignition systems of these and all motors continue, even at the age of 47, to confound me. In a book I love to occasionally re-read the main character says of his Ford Bronco, "Rabbits could be running on a treadmill in there for all I know," and he expresses the hope after a breakdown that all it will take to get the car going again is "a good wash and wax."

That is also me, many times. confused smiley (See below.)

____________________________________________

Eric C. Player, Porterville, CA, USA (Seriously! It's the USA out here!)
MEMBER: CORSA National, Central Coast CORSA, South Coast CORSA, Vintage CORSA, Sfba CORSA, and the San Joaquin Valley Corvair Club.
THEN:
1965 Monza 110, Canary Yellow
1965 Corsa 180 Turbo, Red
1966 Monza 110, Purple
1967 Monza 140, Red
1966 500 110, Black; nicknamed "Shadow"
1965 Monza 110, Camaro Yellow; nicknamed "Silver"
NOW:
1966 Corsa 180 Turbo, Blue; nicknamed "Bluvair"

"He cautioned me not to take notes. It would not have helped if I had, as he would start a paragraph with, 'It is therefore obvious. . .'
and go on from there to matters which may have been obvious to him and God but to no one else."
-- Robert A. Heinlein, character of Daniel B. Davis, 'The Door Into Summer.'



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2020 10:20PM by playerpage.

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: April 21, 2020 11:22PM

The MSD 6A, the Intellitronix, the Crane and most Mallories (not all) are Capacitive Discharge ignition boxes. (And there are a dozen other brands) All of them are triggered by points in the dist or via a magnetic pulse. By themselves, they do not control timing. The classic versions - for the last 30-40 years fire when the dist tells them, so the advance is controlled inside the dist, with vacuum advance (or retard) and mechanical advance. When boost started to appear turbos or mechanical superchargers, companies, like MSD built intermediate boxes that allowed you to control the timing remotely. MSD called theirs a "Boost Timing Control" (or something like that) It plugged in between the mag pulse and the MSD Box and placed a small dial on the dash. It had a sensor that read the amount of boost and allowed the driver to retard the timing "X" degrees based on the boost. Eventually MSD built a box with this built into the box. A few years ago, MSD brought out a Programmable box - with a Serial connection and a Windows program that allowed you to set your own timing curves based on inputs. It is pretty expensive. The Black box - if it ends up working well on the Corvair - might be the easiest alternative. If it can be driven with points, you can run the Corvair dist. If it needs a magnetic pulse, my racing distributor can provide it. It is easy to lock out all advance on my current dist. You have many options.

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: April 22, 2020 01:08AM

Holy cow! I get it! Again, Seth, thank you.

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: April 22, 2020 06:56AM

A little more information for you - MSD Multiple Spark Discharge was originally designed to give more than one spark to the plug. It is debatable if that actually helps since the dwell goes to nothing.
Basically add on boxes like that are supposed to give you a hotter spark and or more sparks in the case of MSD. As Seth said all the timing control is still up to your original distributor.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: April 22, 2020 04:17PM

Pardon my "lecture" mode - Ignore if you already know this.
One further clarification on the CD. Changing to a CD ignition system changes the complete function of the distributor and the way the coil works. Although you could still measure "dwell" defined as the portion of the time the points are closed (out of 360 degrees of rotation), as long as the points open and close reliably, it doesn't matter. In a conventional ignition, the closed points route current through the ignition coil primary windings to create a magnetic field around the secondary windings. That charging of the primary windings and the magnetic field takes time to build up, which is why dwell time matters. When the points open, the magnetic field collapses and that generates the pulse in the secondary that jumps to ground through the spark plug (via the dist cap and wires.) With a CD system, the Capacitor in the ignition box is charged from the power input, with it's output connected to the coil. The points in the distributor become a small switch, carrying very little power. That switch triggers the capacitor when to discharge across the coil. It does not "charge" the primary coil winding magnetic field as much as discharge the capacitor across the primary which instantly induces the pulse in the secondary windings, firing the spark plug. A CD system fires a powerful spark - but a very short one, since it doesn't have to recharge the coil. It just fires through it. That is what makes the multi-spark output possible. But at higher engine speeds, even a CD ignition doesn't have time to put out many multi-sparks. (MSD finally admitted this.) But spark timing in a CD system is much more easily managed than an induction system because of the amount of current in the trigger portion of the systems, and several types of triggers can be utilized - and have been utilized over the years. Questions? rebuttals?

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: April 22, 2020 09:03PM

A capacitor can charge the coil much faster but it still has to charge the coil. The collapse of the field is what fires the plugs. There is no other way to transfer the energy between the 2 sets of windings in the coil.
The bottom line is what you stated "But at higher engine speeds, even a CD ignition doesn't have time to put out many multi-sparks." That's what I was talking about. Dwell may not be the correct term but the way I understand dwell it refers to the amount of time the coil has to charge between sparks.
I could be misunderstanding something.
Does anyone know how the MSD steps up the voltage going to the coil? The only way I know to do it is convert to A/C and run it through a transformer. They claim 460+ volts.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: April 22, 2020 10:46PM

Ed - Check out Wiki on this. It is not a field collapse that fires the plug with a CD system. The discharge of the capacitor across the primary winding induces the output voltage to the plug. From Wiki: "A typical CDI module consists of a small transformer, a charging circuit, a triggering circuit and a main capacitor. First, the system voltage is raised up to 250 to 600 volts by a power supply inside the CDI module. Then, the electric current flows to the charging circuit and charges the capacitor. The rectifier inside the charging circuit prevents capacitor discharge before the moment of ignition. When the triggering circuit receives the triggering signal, the triggering circuit stops the operation of the charging circuit, allowing the capacitor to discharge its output rapidly to the low inductance ignition coil. In a CD ignition, the ignition coil acts as a pulse transformer rather than an energy storage medium as it does in an inductive system. The voltage output to the spark plugs is highly dependent on the design of the CD ignition."

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: playerpage ()
Date: April 22, 2020 10:53PM

[Places Popcorn Bucket in his Lap] *munch* *munch*

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: April 23, 2020 08:13AM

That wiki article has quite a few mistakes. An ignition coil is just a step up transformer.
Here's a good basic article on how transformers work. You can skip the first two paragraphs.
[www.electronics-tutorials.ws]
Basically you have primary and secondary windings coupled by a magnetic field. It takes a change in the field of one to induce a current in the other.
If a coil could fire just by putting voltage across the primary then our points systems would fire twice as often as they should, once when the points open and again when they close.
If a CDI does some magic that circumvents the way transformers work I would love to learn about it.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Progression Ignition
Posted by: Richard ()
Date: April 23, 2020 09:49AM

Seth's explanation is quite good, but it would have been better to use the term "Induction Ignition" instead of "Conventional Ignition".

Points ignition, Pertronix and HEI are ALL "Induction Ignition Systems".
An "Induction Ignition Systems" is not a "Capacitive Discharge Ignition System.

The CDI generates Secondary Ignition voltage, when a voltage is applied to the coil primary winding.

The Induction Ignition generates Secondary Ignition voltage, when a voltage is removed from the coil primary winding.

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