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front alignment specs for late
Posted by: William Pierson ()
Date: February 11, 2020 02:15PM

What to set the front suspension?

1965 Monza convert with a/c. 14x7 wheels.
toe in
caster
camber

Bill Pierson

1964 Spyder Clone
1965 Monza Convertible, factory air, power top , automatic

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: February 11, 2020 04:28PM

Whatever the computer has for specs!

With one small change do not put any positive camber on the front tires. Specs say +.5 - +1. That is not what you want. You want 0 to -.5 for the camber.

To finish off you want 1/8"-1/4" toe in with my preference to 1/8". The castor will do well at +3.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: Pacerace ()
Date: February 11, 2020 06:52PM

I agree with Ken about the Camber. The max I was able to get without shimming my upper arms was -.5° in the front I believe, which is just fine for a street car.

My car is a spirited street/autocross car, and here's what I run up front.

Camber: -.75°
Caster: maxed on one side and matched on the other
Toe: 0°

It's a fun setup and handles great but may be a @#$%& twitchy for some with the zero toe.

________________________________________________________

Chandler
Powder Springs, GA.



1965 Corvair Monza 110/4sp Coupe

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: 65 Corsa Vert ()
Date: February 12, 2020 08:55AM

Per Bryan Blackwell's website

http://autoxer.skiblack.com/setup.html

Alignment.
Once you've got all these cool parts in place, you'll need to align the car to use the tires to their maximum. Alignment plays a very important role in how well the car handles, and if you really want to understand how the alignment specs can influence the handling, I suggest you read a book devoted to the subject, since I've only included a brief description of what effects what.

There are three values for each setting: Factory is from the '65 shop manual ('66 up is a even more conservative). Street is a bit radical, but the car won't be too twitchy and you won't kill your street tires. Autocross is what I found worked pretty well for me, you shouldn't consider it gospel, tho, just a good starting point. Also, remember that I am using *radial* tires, these values will not work very well on bias-ply tires (such as Hoosier Autocrossers). For you early owners, the factory specs are a bit different, but these values should apply as a starting point for a more performance minded car.

Camber.
This is the key one. In essence, the tire tries to roll under and corner on the sidewall so we crank in some negative camber to conteract this. However, negative camber will wear out the inside shoulder of the tire more quickly, so think carefully. For both earlies and lates, the front is adjustable, but the early rear camber can only be set by changing the ride height. You can either cut the springs or use clamps.
Factory. Front: Positive 1 degree +/- 0.5. Rear: Negative 1 to zero degrees.
Street. Front: Negative 0.5 degree. Rear: Negative 1.0 degree.
Autocross. Front: Negative 1.0 degree. Rear: Negative 1.5 degrees.

Caster.
Caster affects both self centering, and also helps crank in more camber. It's only adjustable on the front suspension.
Factory. Front: Positive 2 +/- 0.5 degrees.
Street. Front: Positive 4 degrees.
Autocross. Front: Positive 4 degrees.

Toe.
This has a lot to do with how the car turns in, but better turn in comes at the expense of stability. The factory setting is really too much for any radials. The value is the *total*. Be *very* careful if you try using toe out and drive the car on the street.
Factory. Front: 1/4" to 3/8" toe in. Rear: 1/8" to 3/8" toe in.
Street: Front: 1/8" toe in. Rear: 1/8" toe in.
Autocross: Front: 1/8" toe out. Rear: 1/8" toe in.

I used the Street setting or at least as close as I could get. So far so good for me.

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: February 12, 2020 10:57AM

Not to start a debate but, I've always found "toe in" measured in inches to be a vague measurement. Where is the measurement from? The edge of the wheel, the outer bulge of the tire, the center of the tread? Any one of those points will give forth a different result when it is the measured in inches at those locations. And, unless one is measuring with outer parallel lines they are likely not measuring through the centerline of the hub because a tape measure under the car needs to get below the suspension further throwing off the measured number. And to expand the point a shorter or taller tire if measuring at the tread still gives different results when measured in inches.

Ideally but almost impossible to measure with without professional laser equipment is the ANGLE of the wheels/tires to each other. If set to an angle toe remains consistent(even with larger or smaller tires).

All that said, I have set toe with parallel lines and a tape measure. I've made my own homemade toe measuring device. With that device I have used feeler gages at the outer edge of the wheel. It works well for solid rear axle cars but with 4 wheel adjustability like a Corvair you can end up with correct toe (front/rear) and still have the tires rolling in slightly different directions. Also, the end measurement is still vague and just a point of comparison to re-adjustment after assessing steering feel and tire wear.

Anyway I didn't intend to start a debate rather it was just to point out an "inches" measurement would need to factor the original factory tire size and the factory point of measurement and then determine that ANGLE. Changing tire sizes, using radial tires and intended purpose all factor differently from that factory number (angle) anyway. So toe measurement is still quite vague in many aspects. Regardless, as many have stated they have effective numbers just know from what point they measured toe in inches.

If interested the toe gage was made from angle iron and a couple of bolts. The vertical holes adjust for tire height. Not seen the angle iron on the ground slides over both halves to adjust for width. The eye bolt is spring loaded to allow getting around tire bulge but return to the same point when released.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2020 11:00AM by wittsend.

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Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 12, 2020 11:20AM

WE... good thoughts! and science!

But The tape is "Good enough"! Remember tires are flexible!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
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Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: February 12, 2020 12:06PM

Yes, and for all my arguments I too have simply taken two yard sticks, clamped them with a vise grip and compared the front to rear at the tire bulge under the car. When most situations call for a small fractional toe in (1/32"-1/8") the gap of a sheet of cardboard is all that is likely needed using those bulge points.

Still it is interesting that caster and camber aren't measured in inches. In theory they could be just like toe. BTW, I made a camber gage too. Ironically used an "inches X distance = angle" calculator on the internet to get my numbers.

Attachments:
Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 12, 2020 12:48PM

Besides the tires the body and control arms flex like crazy under load. On my Malibu even with aftermarket control arms with no rubber and an inch of static clearance from tire to body through the complete range of steering and travel my tires hit the body regularly. I like the home made camber gauge.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: February 12, 2020 07:54PM

Way too much trouble to do toe those ways.

Do it the way Thurston Spring Service did it, get front wheels off ground. Rotate wheels and place nail like object in a fixture so the point makes a continuous mark all around the circumference of the tire. Holding the nail in your hand will not be steady enough. Do both tires, of course. Set car back down, best on "turntables" so the suspension flexes like when the car is driven. Now measure between the scribe marks with tram gauge, if you have one, or tape measure. Answer in inches.... or millimeters, or furlongs, just depends on tape.....grinning smiley

Rear wheel vehicles get toe in, as the tires tend to toe out when driven. Front wheel drive vehicles get toe out, as the wheels tend to toe in when driven. Zero toe would be perfect, except the tires move like just stated when driven. Autocross and racing use different rules.grinning smiley

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 12, 2020 08:09PM

That seems to make sense but none of my 4 FWD vehicles call for toe out.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: February 13, 2020 09:28PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That seems to make sense but none of my 4 FWD vehicles call for toe out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Every Front or 4WD generally call for toe out or 0 degrees.

Everyone here is making a mountain out of a molehill! I have used a tape measure for many years and it is easy to do, you just have to hit the same spots on the tread front and rear, close is good enough.

A long time ago I got JC Whitney toe gage and it is pretty accurate if you don't hit the raised lettering on the sidewalls.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 13, 2020 10:20PM

Anyone remember the old "Drive over Toe Meters"? 1954 model







MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: February 14, 2020 03:02AM

Buick Lesabre toe in spec .2" range 0-.4"

[www.autozone.com]

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 114 Corvairs and counting...

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: irfgt ()
Date: February 14, 2020 03:09AM

I use an old fashioned tire slip gauge that you drive over and it measures tire slip over the road. It gives real time measurement of the tire on the road versus the variations of measurements

Re: front alignment specs for late
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: February 14, 2020 10:40AM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone remember the old "Drive over Toe Meters"? 1954 model
>

Yes, I went to school with a kid whose last name was Goodrich..., but the family owned a Firestone store (Irony). They had one of those gauges. As a kid with inline bike wheels it never made sense to me - at the time.

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