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180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: 65moredoor ()
Date: February 07, 2020 12:06PM

Hi all, I've been out of the Corvair world for about 5 years now, and I've missed having one since I sold my last Corviar! I recently purchased a 66 Corsa 180 Coupe that I plan on restoring. The car is complete and it has it's fair share of rust, but it's nothing I haven't done before on one of these. The car came with a 140, but I bought a "rebuilt never ran" 180 RL block engine that is complete from the oil pan to the decals on the air cleaner. It has EVERYTHING on it including the full exhaust, fuel lines, you name it. I only paid $500 for the engine, so I couldn't pass it up no matter how bad it is when I open it up. The guy I bought the engine from said it was in an Ultravan that his uncle owned. It was rebuilt 8 years ago and never put back in. It was sitting in a barn when I picked it up, and it is extremely dirty on the outside. By the looks of it, the engine is rebuilt like they say but I have yet to take the heads and pan off for a look. The heads are clean and bead blasted, the cylinders are spotless, and there's no signs of oil anywhere looking in the shrouds. Being new to turbos, and with my understanding of their performance, I'd like to get the 180 feeling a little more "spirited". My last Corsa had a very hot 140, and it would really run. I know the 140 is probably the better overall performer, but I like the idea of having a real Corsa turbo car.

As far as my modification plan, I'm leaning towards leaving the stock cam (I understand that they are pretty decent unless someone knows otherwise), porting and cleaning up the heads to flow better, install a waste gate, and to do a Weber conversion. I also want to install a safeguard system to increase the timing and prevent spark issues, and put a A/F gauge in the car. Does this sound like a reasonable plan to get some decent results, or am I way off? Are there huge items that I'm missing, or easier things to do that will yield a better result? I don't want a full race engine by any means. I want to keep it reliable and very drive-able at all times. I would like to see some boost in 1st and 2nd gear if that's even do-able with what I'm talking about! I do understand that with great boost, you need great responsibility and to not let these things overheat with your right foot!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2020 12:08PM by 65moredoor.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: February 07, 2020 06:18PM

How can a "Rebuilt, never ran" engine get so filthy? The oil filter looks like it has been there since day one. Who would rebuild an engine and put that back on? I'd assume the engine is likely worth what you paid but it looks VERY suspect to have been rebuilt and never run.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: Timothy Shortle ()
Date: February 07, 2020 06:27PM

I wonder why the engine has the 90 degree oil filter adapter. That was never on a turbo engine
from the factory.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 07, 2020 06:29PM

wittsend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How can a "Rebuilt, never ran" engine get so filthy? The oil filter looks like it has been there since day one. Who would rebuild an engine and put that back on? I'd assume the engine is likely worth what you paid but it looks VERY suspect to have been rebuilt and never run.


Well, since he said it had sat in a Barn for several years, I would say it could get "so filthy" quite easily.
As for the terrible appearance, that may be a bit deceiving.
One possible scenario I can easily imagine is . . . . .
What appears to be oily filth and greasy grime coating every surface of that engine, could very likely only be a thick coating of Barn Dust that has gotten a bit wet because the engine was sitting exposed in the back of a pick-up truck while it was being transported home, through a rainstorm!

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, '62 Monza Wagon, '63 Spyder, '65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dualy, approaching 400K
17'Terry

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: February 07, 2020 06:45PM

OK, where are you at and where did you find the engine?

I do know of one turbo engine in an Ultra! I did some carb work and other things to make it run and it ran pretty good!

BTW, I'm in MI.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: February 07, 2020 07:37PM

I've had an engine sitting uncovered, but on my back (covered) patio for 12 years that is noticeably cleaner than this stored in a barn engine. While anything is possible the oil filter especially gives me pause to question its "never run" state. My concern is more for the person who purchased it than either one of us being correct as to how it got grimy. I just hope he got what he was told.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: February 07, 2020 08:10PM

wittsend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've had an engine sitting uncovered, but on my back (covered) patio for 12 years that is noticeably cleaner than this stored in a barn engine. While anything is possible the oil filter especially gives me pause to question its "never run" state. My concern is more for the person who purchased it than either one of us being correct as to how it got grimy. I just hope he got what he was told.


Agreed.
It does look rusty.
Maybe it was a very "damp" barn. grinning smiley
Parts alone should have a value over $500, so he should be good.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, '62 Monza Wagon, '63 Spyder, '65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dualy, approaching 400K
17'Terry

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: 65moredoor ()
Date: February 07, 2020 08:25PM

I didn’t think the dirtiness of the engine would cause such a conversation lol! American Mel hit the nail on the head. The engine sat in a barn with some sort of livestock those 8 years. I suspect it has more than dirt on it lol! I drove home with it in the bed of a pickup in a snow storm so the dirt turned into a nasty slimy coat of whatever is on it. I honestly think the oil filter on it got that rusty in the conditions it sat in. It was on a dirt floor and has feathers, mice homes, and straw all over it. The barn had that classic livestock authentic odor if you know what I mean. The paint is actuality fairly decent from what I can tell under all that dirt. Why was it “rebuilt” and put out there? The PO claimed that they pulled it out of the ultra van (I think this accounts for the oil filter adapter?) for a rebuild, they did the rebuild, then he said they decided to put a small block Chevy in the ultra and went that route. He said the ultra van was sold and the engine sat. I bought the engine in Columbus OH. For what I paid, I really didn’t care if it’s rebuilt or not. I was going for a rebuild-able RL block and got all the components as a huge bonus.

Ken, being in MI, is this the one? I honestly can’t imagine the 180 being anywhere near a good choice for an ultra van lol!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2020 08:29PM by 65moredoor.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: February 08, 2020 05:37AM

A 180 in an Ultra really isn't a good choice but I did drive this one and it seemed to be OK. The owner said he put quite a few miles on it but I don't think he ever drove very fast!

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: February 08, 2020 06:15AM

A 2-barrel Weber converted for progressive along with a Safeguard can add up to quite a bit. It helps the decision making if you have some of the parts already or a good deal lined up.

EFI and computer controlled programmable ignition is attractive these days. A Carter YH gutted to be a throttle body only with 4 injectors at the bottom of the chrome tube or 6 injectors in the stock intake manifolds sounds pretty nifty. It's reported to make 15#s of boost and a waste gate may not be necessary although waste gates are nifty.
EFI requires a lot of chassis work with high pressure and return and wiring.

I put a 2 barrel Weber on a guy's Corvair and enjoyed the result. It looks pretty sexy. it made enough boost for the clutch to start slipping.

The 58 year old stock ignition curve and control leaves a lot to be desired.

The stock exhaust crossover to turbo inlet pipe needs something different. Both EM and LM are not very good especially if new pipes are not perfect. The clamps where you weld a donut on each pipe look good.
If you have a turbo chassis, getting things from the turbo outlet to run through the body opening can be tricky, although very satisfying when accomplished.

If you're going to make some serious boost you probably want some custom pistons which takes some lead time and extra funding.

I don't know if I'd put a lot of money in open chamber heads since something with a squish may be more desirable even though you need to fabricate a turbo oil drain.

If you're going to be making much boost you might want to look at the PCV capabilities.

The factory thought extra attention to the crankshaft journals with nitriding was needed.

I'd like to see discussion on any or all of these as I'd like to build a good turbo engine for myself one of these days. I'm just getting started on two stock engines for others.

There we go. Did the title mean you were looking for more questions?

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: February 08, 2020 06:39AM

65moredoor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all, I've been out of the Corvair world for about 5 years now, and I've missed having one since I sold my last Corviar! I recently purchased a 66 Corsa 180 Coupe that I plan on restoring. The car is complete and it has it's fair share of rust, but it's nothing I haven't done before on one of these. The car came with a 140, but I bought a "rebuilt never ran" 180 RL block engine that is complete from the oil pan to the decals on the air cleaner. It has EVERYTHING on it including the full exhaust, fuel lines, you name it. I only paid $500 for the engine, so I couldn't pass it up no matter how bad it is when I open it up. The guy I bought the engine from said it was in an Ultravan that his uncle owned. It was rebuilt 8 years ago and never put back in. It was sitting in a barn when I picked it up, and it is extremely dirty on the outside. By the looks of it, the engine is rebuilt like they say but I have yet to take the heads and pan off for a look. The heads are clean and bead blasted, the cylinders are spotless, and there's no signs of oil anywhere looking in the shrouds. Being new to turbos, and with my understanding of their performance, I'd like to get the 180 feeling a little more "spirited". My last Corsa had a very hot 140, and it would really run. I know the 140 is probably the better overall performer, but I like the idea of having a real Corsa turbo car.
>
> As far as my modification plan, I'm leaning towards leaving the stock cam (I understand that they are pretty decent unless someone knows otherwise), porting and cleaning up the heads to flow better, install a waste gate, and to do a Weber conversion. I also want to install a safeguard system to increase the timing and prevent spark issues, and put a A/F gauge in the car. Does this sound like a reasonable plan to get some decent results, or am I way off? Are there huge items that I'm missing, or easier things to do that will yield a better result? I don't want a full race engine by any means. I want to keep it reliable and very drive-able at all times. I would like to see some boost in 1st and 2nd gear if that's even do-able with what I'm talking about! I do understand that with great boost, you need great responsibility and to not let these things overheat with your right foot!




Sounds like a pretty decent plan except for utilizing the stock distributor timing and using a weber. These days, the simple easy way to get the timing right is use a CB black box... it gives you the equivalent of vacuum advance and boost retard, but because this is actually 3D timing, what you really get is separate vaccum advance and boost retard curves for every rpm, which really is the best you can do... lower rpms act more like "hard timing" where the timing wont drop when you smack the throttle, higher rpms act more like traditional mechanical vacuum advance where there's a lot of extra timing for light load cruising but when the throttle is wacked the timing drops enough quick enough to avoid hitting boost with too much timing... giving a very "naturally aspirated like" throttle response no matter the load, rpm or gear. All of this works even better when the Safeguard is in the loop as it adds an extra layer of protection! Best of all, you can use your stock distributor, and just lock it to give a fixed advance. The black box can compensate out all of the slop/backlash within the distributor and give all cylinders the same accurate timing, instead of the 5-6 degree timing variation that always seems to happen with mechanical based systems, especially as they wear.
The issue with the Weber is that carb is not really designed to sit on the inlet of the turbo... no matter what you do and how you set it up it will have poor throttle response, be excessively rich in a light load compared to better, more sensitive carbs like Mikuni flat slide carbs. Mikuni's give fuel injection like throttle response, gobs of air flow and can manipulate the fuel air ratio vs load way better than any other automotive based carb can do. Get ahold of kmart356 for more info on this set-up, as he has done it already. short of going to EFI it is the absolute best you can do!!

Lastly, click on "my new fan" or search this board for NashFan… the stock fan, especially for a turbo leaves A LOT to be desired, wasting an incredible amount of power, and not cooling nearly as well as it should, and not having near enough output on top of that!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2020 06:46AM by 63turbo.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: AlecCarlson ()
Date: February 08, 2020 08:20AM

I rebuilt my Corsa turbo a couple of years ago. Everything except the block and pushrods was new or reconditioned. I kept most everything stock except the cam (OT-20)and heads (CR is 9.0). I don’t race it. I have an AFR, digital CHT gauge, meth injection and programmable (mapped) timing. With the turbo, timing is everything. I am using a Megajolt ECU which gives me a 10x10 matrix of timing values - RPM vs manifold pressure / vacuum. I wrote up a white paper on my timing upgrade - let me know if interested and I’ll send you a link.

Alec
‘66 Corsa turbo convertible 4 speed

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: wittsend ()
Date: February 08, 2020 12:45PM

"I didn’t think the dirtiness of the engine would cause such a conversation lol!"

Trust me when you get around to opening the motor up and it is immaculately clean inside ("never run") I will be very happy for you.

Recently I was contemplating a set of NOS presented lifters. The guy reassured me they looked great but was willing to send me pictures. There were a crankcase deposits at the tuck in point at the side oil hole and a very noticeable circular pattern on the wear surface. All the best on your build. Certainly at $500 you got your money's worth either way.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: February 08, 2020 02:14PM

Buy a cheap cell phone endoscope, pull a plug, take a peak, mystery over.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: 65moredoor ()
Date: February 10, 2020 10:20AM

Thanks for all the replies! It really does me help narrow down where I should focus. I'm a little ways away from the point of starting on this project, but I can definitely get a plan going (and maybe purchase some parts). I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions when the times comes! In the meantime, I'll get the engine shroud off and clean it up to see what I really have. Rebuilt or not, I think I did OK for the money as long as I don't find anything too majorly wrong. I have a spare set of heads, a spare turbo, intake tube, air cleaner, and carb, so that may work to my advantage when I get going on it. I think I'll also try to get the 140 running that's in the car currently. It may not be a bad idea to keep it for a second spare engine.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: 65moredoor ()
Date: February 10, 2020 10:22AM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Buy a cheap cell phone endoscope, pull a plug, take a peak, mystery over.

Do these work well? I've thought about getting one before but I get nervous about wasting money on something that doesn't live up to my expectations.

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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: February 10, 2020 11:23AM

[www.amazon.com]

This is the one I have now, it works very well, I paid up a little for the WIFI and the ability to work on android, iPad and and PC. The picture quality is great. You can read the reviews and decide.

Matt will tell you for sure you can get them for a lot less on Ebay.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: 180 Rebuild Questions
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: February 10, 2020 11:26AM

Sure do! Had one for several years.... $5 -$60 on the bay

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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