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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: January 01, 2020 10:58PM

Racingguy2,

Respectfully suggest you put provisions for a cylinder temp sensor in each head. Have not seen anyone make that suggestion, but should be simple (or so I say).

Next will their be enough meat in the head to run 94mm VW cylinders?

Thanks for all your efforts in this project. Best of luck and financial success.

Looking forward to reading more about the combustion chamber and the head cooling.

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: Curtis ()
Date: January 02, 2020 09:23AM

Sounds like Nash should team up with you for the production runs of his new fan. Looking forward to seeing your progress and the results. I agree modular intakes and individual cylinder heads would be an idea - if you aren't going OHC.


Good luck!

Curtis

64 Spyder Convertible
Milwaukee, Wi

Former Corvairs
62 Monza 900 Coupe (102/4)
64 Monza 900 Covertible (110/PG)
65 Monza Coupe (110/PG)
66 Monza Coupe (110/PG)
66 Monza Sedan (110/PG)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2020 12:32PM by MattNall.

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: racingguy2 ()
Date: January 02, 2020 03:36PM

"From what I understand the tighter press fit is built into the tool and I'd be interested in knowing where folks are getting special tools."

Not the tool, you can buy oversize diameter valve seats.

"If you're starting from scratch what about the copper berylium alloy or whatever it's called seats that are available these days."
BeCu seats are used in high end race heads, but the seats range from $40-100 each (in a material called Moldstar). I'm still doing some homework before I order them, but think all the problems will be alleviated by making them 1.5 times as deep, and almost twice the wall thickness.

As I understand, two studs per cylinder have to be relocated for the 94mm cylinders? I could make provision for it, but right now there is plenty of material around the combustion chamber to bore to any size cylinder.

I have bosses on each cylinder for temp sensors. Once proven, one per head would be practical.

Chamber will look very close to the photo:

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: January 02, 2020 04:15PM

The studs are not relocated for VW 94mm jugs. The VW jugs are redrilled for the Corvair stud pattern.

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Norman, OK

<a href="[www.wunderground.com] src="[weathersticker.wunderground.com]; alt="Click for Norman, Oklahoma Forecast" height="90" width="160"></a>

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: racingguy2 ()
Date: January 02, 2020 04:30PM

Cool! Thanks for the clarification David!
I'll chase down and order a set!

SO, that means YES, I will be able to provide them ready to go for the 94mm cylinders!

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: January 02, 2020 04:33PM

Luv the thought of a new chamber design!

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: chris ()
Date: January 02, 2020 05:44PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Luv the thought of a new chamber design!


I agree! That looks about right for an efficient fast burn chamber.

'65 Monza 4 door
4 speed
110hp
Gardner, KS

Heart of America Corvair Owners Association

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: January 02, 2020 06:28PM

chris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MattNall Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Luv the thought of a new chamber design!
>
>
> I agree! That looks about right for an efficient fast burn chamber.

Please, somebody explain to this dummy as much as you can about this "fast burn" combustion chamber.

Know in 60's GM found the 140 compbustion chameber was most knock insensitive. But lots of things have changed in the last 60 or so years.

Think I see lots of turbulent mixing in the chamber, but not sure I see much quench area. Again, know cylinder head chamber design has become very specific in the last decade or so. Any informed discussion is welcomed.

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: January 02, 2020 06:54PM

racingguy2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "If you're starting from scratch what about the copper berylium alloy or whatever it's called seats that are available these days."


Unless I am mistaken, be very careful with Berylium Copper:

Inhalation of dust, mist, or fume containing beryllium can cause the serious lung condition, chronic beryllium disease. That disease affects primarily the lungs, restricting the exchange of oxygen between the lungs and the bloodstream. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) lists beryllium as a Group 1 Human Carcinogen. The National Toxicology Program (NTP) also lists beryllium as a carcinogen.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: January 02, 2020 07:18PM

toms73novass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> racingguy2 Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > "If you're starting from scratch what about the copper berylium alloy or whatever it's called seats that are available these days."
>
>
> Unless I am mistaken, be very careful with Berylium Copper:
>
> Inhalation of dust, mist, or fume containing beryllium can cause the serious lung condition, chronic beryllium disease. That disease affects primarily the lungs, restricting the exchange of oxygen between the lungs and the bloodstream. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) lists beryllium as a Group 1 Human Carcinogen. The National Toxicology Program (NTP) also lists beryllium as a carcinogen.

Yes, Beryllium is a huge medical issue. It was used in early atomic weapons.. and was a very toxic material to work with. But "national Security" over rode medical concerns at the time. My understanding is that Beryllium reflects nuclear particals in an atomic weapon. It is still used to this day.

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: January 02, 2020 07:22PM

Great!
Then you will NEVER have to worry about your BeCu Corvair valve seats succumbing to Atomic Radiation ! ! ! thumbs up drinking smiley

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, '62 Monza Wagon, '63 Spyder, '65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dualy, approaching 400K
17'Terry

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: January 02, 2020 07:34PM

I worked for NCR, this stuff was used for load beams "strain gauges" in our scanner scales. They needed to be hand sanded for calibration, I went the factory with my techs for training. We repaired thousands of them, the techs are all still alive and so am I. Something will eventually get me at my age, but doubt it will be this.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 02, 2020 07:45PM

Beryllium Copper - I wonder if it is safer than Beryllium alone? Lots of things are bad in one form and not in another.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, 113 Corvairs and counting...

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: racingguy2 ()
Date: January 02, 2020 07:47PM

LOL! No worries guys. I've worked with BeCu in the past, so I know how toxic it can be. There are certain alloys that shed heat so fast, you could put a 1/2" plate in your hand, and an oxy-acetylene torch on the other side, and not feel the heat...amusingly they call that one "area 51 metal". This alloy is still used in nuclear applications. I've also made mine destruction tools out of it for the Navy. It's strong enough to withstand a mine detonation, and be re-usable.

The racing industry and the plastic mold industry have moved away from actual BeCu, and use a few other similar alloys that are non-toxic. Moldstar 90 is one of the popular ones. Still crazy expensive. The top fuel guys tweak the alloys to perfection, and it's very secretive. They make the exhaust seats out of something very close to Moldstar 90, and the intake seats out of a bronze alloy. They run Inconel exhaust valves ($12/ea) and 6-2-4-2 titanium exhaust valves ($120/ea) (2.950" dia intakes!) We developed a very special heat treat and aging process to get them up to Rc42 (really hard for titanium).

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: racingguy2 ()
Date: January 02, 2020 08:06PM

BeCu is most hazardous when in dust form, so grinding or sanding it is the highest risk. The top fuel guys CUT rather than grind seats. If I recall correctly, BeCu is actually more hazardous than pure Beryllium. Because the copper makes it non-soluble and it then sits in the lungs.
Beryllium is atomic number four, and second column over on the left side of the periodic table, so very reactive in pure state. (Chemistry/Material science nerd)

J.O. I think it probably affects different people with different severity. We understand so little about the human body...some people get lung cancer from smoking a cigarette a day, others, like my great grandmother smoked a pack a day until she was 104 and never saw a doctor in her life.

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: gnvair ()
Date: January 03, 2020 04:18AM

toms73novass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> racingguy2 Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > "If you're starting from scratch what about the copper berylium alloy or whatever it's called seats that are available these days."
>
>
> Unless I am mistaken, be very careful with Berylium Copper:
>
> Inhalation of dust, mist, or fume containing beryllium can cause the serious lung condition, chronic beryllium disease. That disease affects primarily the lungs, restricting the exchange of oxygen between the lungs and the bloodstream. The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) lists beryllium as a Group 1 Human Carcinogen. The National Toxicology Program (NTP) also lists beryllium as a carcinogen.

You use oil or other lubricants to prevent the dust when cutting Berylium copper seats which makes it a non issue.

Lee J



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2020 04:20AM by gnvair.

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: scottymac ()
Date: January 03, 2020 09:25AM

I'm simply amazed that someone is investing in new heads for the Corvair, I sincerely hope I can afford a set. Although the following comment may be premature, I felt the timing was so serendipitous, I had to post. The March issue of CAR CRAFT magazine has an article (page 16) on unshrouding the valves in a LS style combustion chamber. Not sure that would apply to Corvair size appropriate valves, just thought I'd bring it to your attention.

Scott
Danville, In.
'65 Corsa basket case
'66 Monza coupe

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: January 03, 2020 10:24AM

Scotty... Many have "unshrouded" the Vair valves and RR2 is incorporating that in his design..

MODERATOR
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..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: January 03, 2020 10:46AM

So looking at the pic from the CC side, is the plug hole going to be recessed or use a longer reach plug?

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Billet cylinder heads UPDATE!!
Posted by: racingguy2 ()
Date: January 03, 2020 11:08AM

The plugs are both longer reach, and at the bottom of a pocket.

Sorry, No more sharing spark plugs with your lawn mower...spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

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