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Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 07, 2019 10:16AM

This whole Corvair transaxle for a sand rail thing is getting out of hand.

smiling smiley

While I have the axle apart to install the 4.11 ring and pinion should I also upgrade the spider carrier?

I have a rear engine setup with a '65 110 HP engine and a stock 65 4 speed transaxle. I am running Mickey Thompson Baja Claw 31x11.5-15LT tires in the rear. As you might guess, first gear feels like I am starting in second so that is why I want to install the 4.11 ring and pinion.

I am relatively easy on transaxles since I have learned to baby the VW transaxles with high performance engines over the years. I have rebuilt several VW transaxles over the years during the learning process. smiling smiley

I went with the Corvair transaxle in this buggy with hopes that it would be a better match for the poser of the Corvair engine and hold out better than the VW transaxles do.

I do know to avoid stutter bumps under power and to let off of the power when landing after a jump (I learned both the hard way). I will not be using paddle tires so I will not have that level of strain on the system. However, I do like to spin the tires in sand to produce a nice rooster tail!

Strangely, I have never blown the spider gears in a VW transaxle.

So, would those with recreational off road experience using Corvair transaxles care to give me advice on this or any other related topic?

Thanks!

p.s., I suppose I should post pictures ... will do so shortly

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 07, 2019 10:52AM







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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: December 07, 2019 12:39PM

I would say four gear spiders are an absolute must.

Anything that provides strength is worth doing.

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: Seth Emerson ()
Date: December 07, 2019 02:38PM

Did you find your 4.11 gears? 4-spider would be a good insurance policy - and easy if you have it all apart. Remember to add the little boot over the vacuum advance arm on the distributor. All sorts of crap can get inside - Clarks has them. Nice Ignition wires!

Seth Emerson

Check my new Performance Corvair Web site [www.perfvair.com]

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 07, 2019 08:48PM

Seth Emerson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you find your 4.11 gears? 4-spider would be a good insurance policy - and easy if you have it all apart. Remember to add the little boot over the vacuum advance arm on the distributor. All sorts of crap can get inside - Clarks has them. Nice Ignition wires!

Thanks on the wires. They have a good air tight fit on the fan housing. I have been offered a 4.11 ring and pinion set from a very knowledgeable Corvair expert with the following description.

Quote
I obtained the used gear set with no information as to the previous installation history. The gears look to have been stored in a damp environment at one time as there is some small pitting of the gear faces. There is no visible rust, so I surmise that the gears were cleaned, possibly by soda or plastic media blasting. There is no apparent wear on the gears and I would consider the gear set to be very serviceable.

I am nervous about them but I trust the judgement of the expert who is offering them to me. I have searched the internet for pitted ring and pinions and, as to be expected, the opinions run from don't run them to I ran them pitted for thousands of miles with no issues.

smiling smiley

What do you all think? I hate to throw my money away or risk collateral damage to other components if these fail.

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 07, 2019 08:50PM

Phil Dally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would say four gear spiders are an absolute must.
>
> Anything that provides strength is worth doing.



Are those pics of you? if so, what engine/transaxle were you running? smiling smiley

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: December 08, 2019 04:59AM

Unless the pitting is major I don't think I would worry with them in a buggy.

If you want the 4 spider conversion I modify the original carrier for the 4 spider set up and make the center block and pins. It does take some fitting and grinding of the yoke nuts for the minimal clearance. We can talk if you want more info.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: December 08, 2019 05:50AM

Picture one is 1963 Corvair turbo with same four speed and 3.55 gear.

Picture two is Renault Dauphine Gordini four cylinder and three speed.

I learned how to double clutch really quick using that crashbox tranny.

Picture three is 1965 Corvair 140 with same four speed and 3.55 gear.

I broke the Transvair clone suspension my Dad had fabricated for me.

All three of the pictures are from the late sixties and or early seventies.

We only ran stock stuff at that point as we didn't really know any better.

I'm eleven in the Renault buggy shot...the first time ever driving off road.

Picture one is Pismo Dunes, two is Kelso Dunes, and three is Glamis Dunes.

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 08, 2019 11:12AM

Wow! Did you have a heavy duty clutch in the 1963 Corvair turbo with same four speed and 3.55 gear? Obviously that is what I am running and you obviously have over sized tires on yours!

I'm clutching too much and it is slipping causing the burnt clutch smell.

Thanks!

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 08, 2019 11:25AM

BTW, this is our local sand hill (Montessa Park) on the Rider Planet web site. They are featuring my mid-engine 140 HP Corvair sand rail. The still picture is my son at the base of the hill. The video is me. The video opens up with the sound of dirt bikes - that is not my engine. Notice how often I let off the throttle going up the hill trying to avoid wheel hop. I have yet to see a VW powered sand rail go up the hill. I have seen Pinto and V8 powered sand rails make it up.

smiling smiley

https://www.riderplanet-usa.com/atv/trails/info/new_mexico_14746/ride_ec69.htm

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: December 08, 2019 11:31AM

We used rebuilt stock turbo/140 pressure plates.

Back then Valley Friction in North Hollywood did that.

Slipping clutch wasn't something we had much problem with.

Breaking frames was a thing...note the tow rope on the Renault.

Check out the temporary repair with a chain on the blue turbo buggy.

The permanent repair can be seen in the earlier wheelie picture above.

That frame was a Huth by Enoch Muffler in Burbank...haven't seen one since.

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 08, 2019 11:36AM

You need to try a 4 or 6 PUCK disc! with the 4 spiders...


Old sandcars were super light...easy on parts and great performance.


Dirtcars at totally different!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 08, 2019 11:46AM

I have a stock 110 clutch so it is not the 140 pressure pressure plate which has a heavier spring pressure like you had. Revving the engine to overcome what feels like starting in second frequently causes the clutch to slip so I found a good used 140 pressure plate that I will use when I put all of this back together. It should not be a problem with the 4.11 ring and pinion but I figure it can't hurt.

I can't remember ever breaking a frame - except when I tried to jump a ditch with my first "dune buggy" which was a shortened VW pan with some bars welded on it. I nose dived into the opposite bank and broke the welded pan at the welds. Never went back to a VW pan after that.

smiling smiley

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 08, 2019 11:52AM

Many "sandcars" were built using exhaust tubing!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: Johnniespeed ()
Date: December 08, 2019 03:17PM

Is your first gear a 3:20 ratio or 3:65 ? There is also an early FC transmission that has an even lower first gear, that may help your situation. That FC ratio may have been 4:27 first gear ratio, someone with a better memory will correct me if I am wrong.

John

1962 Rampside, 4.3 Vortec powered.
The thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death.

Sparta Michigan.


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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: December 08, 2019 04:21PM

nmcollector Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow! Did you have a heavy duty clutch in the 1963 Corvair turbo with same four speed and 3.55 gear? Obviously that is what I am running and you obviously have over sized tires on yours!
>
> I'm clutching too much and it is slipping causing the burnt clutch smell.
>
> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I have several different disc materials available. Stock lining, Carbon Kevlar, Kevlar button and if you really want to wear parts out I have a ceramic puck disc available also.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 08, 2019 06:20PM

Johnniespeed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is your first gear a 3:20 ratio or 3:65 ? There is also an early FC transmission that has an even lower first gear, that may help your situation. That FC ratio may have been 4:27 first gear ratio, someone with a better memory will correct me if I am wrong.

I don't know about thefirstgear ratio but will find out. I'll keep your suggestions in mind in case the 4.11 ring and pinion is not enough. Thanks.

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: nmcollector ()
Date: December 08, 2019 06:22PM

vairmech Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> nmcollector Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > Wow! Did you have a heavy duty clutch in the 1963 Corvair turbo with same four speed and 3.55 gear? Obviously that is what I am running and you obviously have over sized tires on yours!
> >
> > I'm clutching too much and it is slipping causing the burnt clutch smell.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> I have several different disc materials available. Stock lining, Carbon Kevlar, Kevlar button and if you really want to wear parts out I have a ceramic puck disc available also.


I'll keep that in mind. smiling smiley thanks

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: dickbolt1 ()
Date: December 13, 2019 06:44AM

No, but do put in the pozzi plates in RE. Dick Corv8 in Yenko 99 1066.

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Re: Should I upgrade to a 4 spider gear setup on my Sand Rail?
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: December 13, 2019 06:59AM

No positraction with split brakes...ever!!!

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