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Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: jamesolefjensen ()
Date: November 30, 2019 06:08PM

I'm rebuilding a Saginaw 4 speed and it's missing the anti-rattle plate on the countergear (item 38 in figure 1B, pg 7-11 of the 66 shop manual supplement).

How stupid would it be to leave it out?

James
65 Corsa

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: November 30, 2019 07:21PM

That piece has been known to loosen up and rattle itself.

We always left them out when building a Crown transmission.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2019 07:24PM by Phil Dally.

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: jamesolefjensen ()
Date: November 30, 2019 08:20PM

Ok. Good to know. It didn't seem like much of a sin to leave it out. On the other hand, I don't like straying too far from factory.

James
65 Corsa

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: TheRealHip ()
Date: November 30, 2019 08:33PM

Do you put in a shim or spacer to compensate..........

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: jamesolefjensen ()
Date: November 30, 2019 08:59PM

No, just the needle bearing washers and thrust washers. Fore and aft play seems to be in the 1/32" range, maybe even less (I don't have and all indicator).

I did give that notion some thought but since and the anti-rattle plate doesn't bear against anything, I'm thinking compensation for it's absence is not necessary.

James
65 Corsa

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: December 01, 2019 05:08AM

The anti rattle plate is in fact only along for the ride.

I you do leave it in be sure those mounting studs are solid.

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: December 01, 2019 06:51AM

James inspect the wave washer between
1st gear and end bearing closely. It
is common to see cracks/breaks and
completely missing.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC/V8 Registry

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: jrsport ()
Date: December 01, 2019 09:25AM

If you leave this plate out everything will be fine except the gears will rattle when idling in neutral especially when the oil has been warmed up good. Not a problem in a racecar but would be a nuisance in a street car. James Reeve

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: RexJohnson ()
Date: December 01, 2019 09:59AM

I have taken several transmissions apart that it appeared that the anti-rattle plate was never there. I also took 1 apart that it was coming loose.

RJ tools
Salem,Oregon

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: December 01, 2019 01:57PM

All Vair four speeds were a Saginaw. Model year 66 and newer were the revised Saginaw with the idler plate and springs

Dan Drommerhausen does most of the Corvair transmission work in S. Calif. Dan ALWAYS removes the idler plate, studs, and springs; unless the customer requests that it stay. BTW Dan usually has the "wavy" washer for sale.

The idler plate and springs have a history of coming loose and then BANG!! Only purpose was to reduce some noise. I haven't noticed any difference on my 66 Saginaw 4 speed without the idler plate and springs.

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: December 01, 2019 03:18PM

I would leave them out. It's been a few years since I did my '67 but I don't remember that part being there. I guess it's been about 30 years though... I do remember adding a 4 spyder carrier and posi.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: December 01, 2019 04:17PM

If the anti-rattle palet is there and solid leave it if it isn't there don't worry about it.

If you need the wavy washer I have good used and NOS ones.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: jamesolefjensen ()
Date: December 01, 2019 05:31PM

To everyone who responded, thank you. All good advice. The countershaft and reverse idler gear are in. The anti-rattle plate is not present; it was missing from the core I am rebuilding.

And just to be clear, it's a 66-69 4 speed. I bought the ~$200 Clark's kit with everything including bearings but not the countershaft.

On to my next question, if not a tangent. The rear bearing retainer was broken so I got a used one from Clark's. Unfortunately, that one is cracked. I'm sure Clark's will make good; no question there. Here's my question; is there a new replacement rear bearing retainer out there? Maybe a billet version?

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: December 01, 2019 06:31PM

james - the bearing retainer, even when they look good, can be worn to the point of being unusable.

Note that when Dan D, rebuilt my 66 transmission he stated the counter gear shaft and needle bearings should usually be replaced. Usually he finds the old unit in the transmission is not serviceable, even when they "look" good.

You mentioned the rear bearing retainer was broken. Look for a reason. Check the differential ring and pinion shaft. Internal splines are often worn and the shaft may have been replaced with the incorrect shaft. NOTE that you CANNOT use a 65 or earlier ring and pinion shaft with a 66-69 transmission. The 66-69 R&P shaft is shorter. The 65 and earlier slightly longer shaft will cause premature failure of the 66-69 transmission rear bearing. This was documented in CORSA in an article by Dan D.

Good luck.

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: jamesolefjensen ()
Date: December 01, 2019 07:54PM

Here's a photo of the rear bearing retainer that came out of the core transmission. The failure mode indicates an unwanted forward force. I'll look into the ring and pinion shaft mismatch issue. I bought a transaxle core as a unit. Maybe there something funky going on.

James
65 Corsa

P.S. sorry about the quality of the photo. I'm having a hard time with the 500kb limit.

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: December 02, 2019 03:58AM

Even though the counter gear shaft looks OK I routinely replace them anyway. I also supply those if needed.

As far as the broken retainer I would look for a 65 pinion shaft in the diff. That can easily be identified. If the pinion shaft sticks out beyond the bearing more than a few thousandths it hits the retainer ring on the mainshaft and could also cause other problems in the diff.

With that, I have seen the retainers broken for no reason, I replace them and have no issues later.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: RexJohnson ()
Date: December 02, 2019 10:26AM

A '65 pinion shaft can be easily shortened to work with the '66 and later transmissions. Any kind of grinder will work as it is not a precise distance. If there is an old bearing on the shaft just grind up to the bearing leaving a couple of thousands of the shaft sticking out from the bearing.

RJ tools
Salem,Oregon

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Re: Saginaw 4 speed rebuild: first of many questions
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: December 02, 2019 02:25PM

RexJohnson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A '65 pinion shaft can be easily shortened to work with the '66 and later transmissions. Any kind of grinder will work as it is not a precise distance. If there is an old bearing on the shaft just grind up to the bearing leaving a couple of thousands of the shaft sticking out from the bearing.

Yes that can work, BUT you also have to cut a taper on the inside of the shaft, or shorten the shaft BELOW the bearing.

The final test is to slip the transmission up to the differential WITHOUT A GASKET and it should fit snug. If you have to force the transmission to be flush by even a few thousands of and inch - you have interference that will cause a failure. BTW I've seen folks use a couple extra gaskets to fix, although I don't suggest doing that.

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