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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: The Californian ()
Date: October 09, 2019 11:40AM

' roll the car but I haven't been able to reproduce that'

So.You are saying you have pushed one of these '60-63's and it lost control but

DID NOT roll over?

That is good news of a sort.

But having it fishtail violently in freeway traffic is not a plus with us.

'extend the suspension and "jack" the rear of the car'

Yes.Jacking a '60-63 sounds like it is something to avoid.

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: October 09, 2019 03:53PM

I've spun them countless times but never came close to rolling.

"But having it fishtail violently in freeway"
Not sure how you would do that.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: The Californian ()
Date: October 09, 2019 04:20PM

'never came close to rolling'

That's good news!

We are limited to getting '60-63's cars and parts.

'Not sure how you would do that'

By making sudden steering corrections at speed.

We will cross the bridge when we get to it.

Our big excitement is getting a carb to look at in about a month.

THE CALIFORNIAN

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 09, 2019 05:12PM

Bob, if you lived where you are now... and had a 60-63 EM in the 60'...with bias ply tires....

And IF you had a habit of driving up and down HWY 74 to Mt. San Jacinto... you'd know exactly!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: The Californian ()
Date: October 09, 2019 05:41PM

Thanks Matt

I get the picture.

Probably will get a whole car.

The 4 door with the flat top or cantilever roof is real early 60's.

Yes.It is better to take my punishment like the rest of the '60-63 owners.

Not pull a fast one and put a '65 and up rear suspension under it.

We have big plans for those drivetrain parts anyhow.

THE CALIFORNIAN

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: ensys ()
Date: October 09, 2019 07:05PM

Mr.place

A "pinned" center makes the transverse spring act more like two half-springs (or two "semi-elliptics", as it were), each half acting in a counter-productive manner. The inside half will try to push the wheel up, and the outside half will try to pull the wheel down. And in the process, it will also contribute to roll stiffness.

The true camber compensator is not connected in the center at all (tho in the static position, it will push up against the diff.) because its only function is to carry load in a static position and not to interact with the suspension activities in a turn, thereby making no contribution to roll stiffness.

In the case of the Virtual Z Bar, the frictionless hinge connection allows the dropping force of the inside wheel's weight and spring action to be transferred (by the entire spring as a single member) as lift to the outside wheel, counteracting its tendency to drop/jack. Thus, the only "work" the hinge does is to fix the assembly in 3-dimentional space.

Mr.Cali

I'll bet you would help yourself if your diagrams were drawn more complete. For example, the last ignores the obvious; the wheel is connected, via 90deg. axle, to the diff, which is leaning with the chassis, thus lifting the connection end of the inside axle to a point higher and more toward the outside. Thus, the inside wheel you drew is tilted in the wrong direction. But as others have pointed out, the inside wheel is mostly along for the ride, while the outside wheel is doing all the heavy lifting (an unabashed pun).

And the "goal" is to push the outside wheel up to counter the tendency of the unloaded rear end to rise in a turn, while the action of the springs along with cornering forces, tend to push the axle ends down and together (think of the shot here of the Spitfire from the rear).

Now this may come as news to you, but any car will behave badly to sudden course changes at road speed. Of course, it could be worsened by excessive rear camber and a tail-down attitude.

I hope this promotes clarity.

Keep 'em flying...

S.J.Szabo

From America's
Automobile Heartland

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: The Californian ()
Date: October 09, 2019 11:01PM

'dropping force of the inside wheel's weight and spring action to be transferred'

I would link the outward force of the wheel in picture to the other wheel.

That would be a link from a bottom arm on the inside wheel to a TOP link on the

outside wheel to pull it back up straight.

That would work if you were always turning left or right.

If you put two such links.One on each side it 'freezes' the two wheels straight up

and down.

So that is out.

I do not see how you can transfer lateral forces from one wheel to another.

That is with solid links and working equally on both wheels.

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: The Californian ()
Date: October 09, 2019 11:08PM

Here is drawing of outside right wheel with car turning to the left.

Drawing is mislabeled 'inside wheel'.

THE CALIFORNIAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2019 11:17PM by The Californian.

Attachments:
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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: jamesolefjensen ()
Date: October 09, 2019 11:32PM

Fascinating subject. As an engineer and a petrol head reading up on automotive design is a bit of a pass time for me. Let me add to this discussion by directing attention to a Hagarty video that does a pretty fair job of explaining and more importantly demostrating how the EM rear suspension works. I know it has been posted here before but being so relavant to this discussion, I thought it worth repeating

[youtu.be]

James
65 Corsa

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: October 10, 2019 04:24AM

The Californian wrote:

"Just to be clear.

We build tube chassis.Very simple designs.'Rolling Engine Teststands'.

Goal is to use as many parts from the Corvair as possible."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you say you're going to build a tube frame mid-engine chassis and then mount EM Corvair rear suspension on it.
I doubt if it will ever get underway but it's fun to dream.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Date: October 10, 2019 06:43AM

Well..... now i need to go take an off ramp at an unreasonable speed. Should put any doubt to rest. If you don't hear back from me, I suicided myself.

1961 Corvair 700 Sedan - 3sp - Gasoline Heat - Lowered a bit - Rust in Progress
I live my life 19.5 seconds at a time.


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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 10, 2019 06:45AM

With your 14" wheels /tires.... survival is more certain! GGG

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: October 10, 2019 12:53PM

"The true camber compensator is not connected in the center at all (tho in the static position, it will push up against the diff.) because its only function is to carry load in a static position and not to interact with the suspension activities in a turn, thereby making no contribution to roll stiffness."
So give us an example of a true camber compensator. The Posche design still pushes on the differential in corners so that is out.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: 7004doorL ()
Date: October 10, 2019 05:35PM

One does not have to be a Dan Gurney to drive an EM Corvair.

Maybe it is not the best idea to drive it like Willy Nilly either?

I have driven mine on the Plain, and in the Rain,
and all the way to Fremont Lake.

Keep in mind trailing throttle oversteer as in any rear Engine car.

Leave no turn un stoned.

And when all you see are Beer Cans on the side of the Road, you are on a Logging Road. (from the odd bodkins). If you see Soda cans you may not have to look out for Logging Trucks.

Mike
1960 4 Door
80 HP PG

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 10, 2019 06:37PM

I'm kind of surprised that the "experts" have left out some tricks that have been thoroughly tested and are known to work well... Longer axles, and wider tires on the ends of those longer axles, and smaller od tires. I run 175-70X13
tires on mine, and that one difference alone makes an enormous difference in handling! One other one that I've heard about but not tried and don't know anyone that has is to block the pivot points on the swing arms downwards, which would put the swing arms into a more "negative camber like" position relative to the axles

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: The Californian ()
Date: October 10, 2019 07:34PM

'a Hagarty video'About Corvair.

Interesting.

'I doubt if it will ever get underway'

Always stay on the sunny side of life.

'take an off ramp at an unreasonable speed'

Yes.Picture yourself at Indianapolis!

'With your 14" wheels /tires'

I will be going to look in Hotrodding Your Corvair book for factory wheel

sizes.

'give us an example of a true camber compensator'

I think I will give the 'Camber Compensator' a break.

'trailing throttle oversteer'

What is that?

'left out some tricks'

I am coming around to just leaving it alone and deal with it as is.

'

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: October 10, 2019 07:41PM

All Corvair cars came with 13" wheels.
>
> 'trailing throttle oversteer'
>
> What is that?
If you are in a hard corner and let off the gas it will oversteer. Not rear engined cars only but much more likely. My '82 Malibu does it.

> 'left out some tricks'
The discussion topic is camber compensators. Lots of other handling things to talk about but I'm making a feeble attempt to stay on topic.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 10, 2019 08:29PM

Going WAAAAAAAY back in time


In the 60's when very little was available parts and knowledge...

Rule of thumb...


On City Streets / good roads... you only needed 3" of ground clearance and 3" of suspension movement.

Remember that in the 60's the MAJORITY of streets / roads were still dirt / Gravel.

SO.... all we did was lower the car.... limit wheel travel [ up and down]..... worked well!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: October 10, 2019 08:43PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Going WAAAAAAAY back in time
>
>
> In the 60's when very little was available parts and knowledge...
>
> Rule of thumb...
>
>
> On City Streets / good roads... you only needed 3" of ground clearance and 3" of suspension movement.
>
> Remember that in the 60's the MAJORITY of streets / roads were still dirt / Gravel.
>
> SO.... all we did was lower the car.... limit wheel travel [ up and down]..... worked well!


? eye popping smiley ? confused smiley ? eye rolling smiley ? eye popping smiley ?
Where in the world did you live ? ? ?
My town had ALL paved roads and streets, and every town we visited did too!
Alleys behind our houses were dirt/gravel, but ALL our streets were paved.

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
Have; '66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza
Have had; '61 Monza coupe, '62 Monza Wagon, '63 Spyder, '65 Corsa
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dualy, approaching 400K
17'Terry

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Re: Corvair EMPI Camber Compensator
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 10, 2019 09:02PM

Where I lived, it was much closer to Matt's description then, maybe half the roads were actually paved!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Current Page: 6 of 7


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