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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: October 04, 2019 03:35PM

Doug I sent you a PM to remind you there are
a number of steps required plus tools and
some parts needed to swap the exhaust wheel.

If you don't have everything to do the
change then buying the entire unit from
Marco is easier and faster.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC/V8 Registry

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: DOUG WARD ()
Date: October 04, 2019 09:12PM

Steve,I do appreciate your concern if I am capable of doing my turbo. Thank you. In the 70's I had many early corvairs & Rampsides.I always did my own maintenance & repairs, including overhauls. I slalom raced a 64 Monza convert & did well with it. I built the engine, made my own 4 carb setups & that engine put out over 200 hp & turned well over 7000 rpm's. I still have a room full of 1st & 2nd place trophies that I took from the 911's. I think I can do this turbo repair myself.

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: DOUG WARD ()
Date: October 04, 2019 09:32PM

Here's the latest , guys. I have found the turbine I have been looking for & should have it in a few days. For now, we ( my wife Ginny & I ) are going to take a couple of days off & stay on our boat in Newport Beach. There is an airshow this week end & they fly right over where we have the boat moored. ( free air show )
I'll probably get to doing the turbo next week. I'll keep you posted on the progress. BOY ! This is a GREAT forum. Thank all you guys for your input.
Doug Ward

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: DOUG WARD ()
Date: October 18, 2019 08:52PM

Hi guys. It's been a hectic week for me & I didn't get to work on the turbo very much. It's Friday PM & I just finally got the car running with the overhauled turbo. It seemed to go together pretty well. It spun OK when I turned it with my fingers, before The carb was mounted. The engine fired right up. There was quite a bit of white smoke, which I figured was just residual assembly oil & cleaners. However, I took it to the store today & it's smoking a lot . Out of the tailpipe. Mostly under acceleration. I put new gaskets in as well as the oil seal. I did my best to adjust the end play & tolerances to book specs. I can hear the turbine spinning with my stethescope so I know it's spinning. I did not try to get boost as I was on surface streets & really didn't get things up to temperature.
If any of you have ideas as to what isn't quite right, Please share your thoughts with me. This has been a good learning curve for me, since all of my previous Corvair experiences have been with early carburetor models. This is my 1st turbo.
Doug Ward

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: October 18, 2019 10:04PM

Blue smoke is OIL

White is unburnt fuel...

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: October 19, 2019 07:55AM

Doug Ward wrote:

"I filled the tank & drove the car about 60 miles & it looks like the MPG is up to about 12 1/2 now."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was a while back, before the different turbo but from what I gather it's the same carburetor. This was at a time when it was not making boost.

12.5 MPG does not sound satisfactory. I can't imagine you were WOT trying to make boost over the entire course.
How were the spark plugs looking after the test drive? Black and sooty? A lot of times I'll only pull a couple easy ones like #1 and 2 to get a read.

I seem to still be leaning towards carburetor and/or fuel system trouble with too much gas.

On another tack regarding Corvair turbos and MPG, Kevin Nash has some interesting opinions about spark timing at highway cruising speed.
At say 3000 RPMs in 4th gear with light throttle, the normal Rochester equipped engine is sporting let's say 30 degrees of mechanical advance plus let's say 6 degrees of vacuum advance for a total let's say 36 degrees.
At 3000 RPMs in 4th gear with light throttle the turbo distributor is still pretty close to it's initial 24 degrees. The engine is not running with good efficiency. We were discussing them running hot on the highway but it must factor in when discussing MPG as well.
I hope I'm understanding Kevin correctly and not speaking amiss. I'm certainly open to correction as I find this an interesting topic.

I'm not trying to muddy the waters, only trying to focus in on your dismal MPG for a 164 CI engine.
I live on a rural road. I can do an extended pull at highway speed, shut the engine off and coast in to a safe place for a spark plug reading, I can even let it cool off before removing while I do something else. This takes away the possibility of the spark plug taking on a different color while idling and such.

It's a long way around the block to return to how's your spark plugs looking?

They're also moot points until you figure out why it's smoking out the exhaust.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com



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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: October 19, 2019 08:37AM

JimBrandberg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> On another tack regarding Corvair turbos and MPG, Kevin Nash has some interesting opinions about spark timing at highway cruising speed.
> At say 3000 RPMs in 4th gear with light throttle, the normal Rochester equipped engine is sporting let's say 30 degrees of mechanical advance plus let's say 6 degrees of vacuum advance for a total let's say 36 degrees.
> At 3000 RPMs in 4th gear with light throttle the turbo distributor is still pretty close to it's initial 24 degrees. The engine is not running with good efficiency. We were discussing them running hot on the highway but it must factor in when discussing MPG as well.
> I hope I'm understanding Kevin correctly and not speaking amiss. I'm certainly open to correction as I find this an interesting topic.

It depends on actual manifold vacuum on the N/A example that you cite, but I'm pretty sure that the N/A car timing for level ground at freeway speeds is closer to 45-48 degrees, as the "all in" vacuum advance is something like 20 degrees for the stock cans. On my car, my vacuum advance is basically "flat timing" between 8" and 20", giving 10 degrees in that range so I'm at 42 degrees at 3k at 70. This sounds like a hella amount of timing for a turbo but it sure loves it and I've found it ping free and happy as a clam running it that way with 14.5 A/F's. some other tricks I've found with being able to play
with timing and fuel like this... I add 7-8 degrees of timing beyond 21" for when the throttle is snapped shut and the fuel levels are further reduced at that point, sometimes taking the A/Fs out to 18:1, and the net result of the timing and fueling in that situation is to reduce engine braking over what it would normally be, and further reduce wasting gas.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: DOUG WARD ()
Date: October 19, 2019 04:23PM

I have read your responses guys. It's hard to tell if the smoke is white or blue. Today, concentrating on the fuel mixture, I've taken another look at the carb pump rod. It looks like it's not hardly even entering the jet, so I bent the bracket down about 1/8th inch so the rod is further down into the jet. Is the "step" on the rod supposed to even get close to the jet when the throttle is opened ? I test drove the car just now & it seems to be smoking a little less, but still much more than I like. Mainly on acceleration.That tells me that it MAY still be too rich. As I said before, I don't have the gauge to determine the correct height of the rod, so I am still at a guessing stage.
Is there any other areas in the turbo that could let it pass excessive amounts of oil ? Other than a possible broken oil ring on the turbine shaft ? What about the carbon seal that is in the seal assembly ? ( the 3 inch diameter disc next to the compresser?) I didn't replace that. BTW, I'm still not getting ANY boost. Doug Ward

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: October 19, 2019 07:02PM

You need to adjust the rod per Bob Helt's book. Guessing will take a long time.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: DOUG WARD ()
Date: November 22, 2019 06:02PM

Hi guys. Well, it's been about a month since my last update post. I'll probably repeat myself but here is what I've done.
I drove my car out to see the very respected mechanic that I have been conferring with. He saw a lot of oil all over the engine, remembered that I had told him that I had had compression numbers around 100 to 125 PSI. After some discussion, he pretty much determined that my engine was pretty much worn out to the point of not being able to support any boost & it needed an overhaul. His repair labor prices are pretty high ( $ 1600.00 to do a valve job even if I took the heads off myself.). With the usual extra parts ( new pistons,cylinders, gaskets, bearings, etc., the Overhaul could easily top $3800.00)
Well, that is outside of my current budget. I took the car home & decided to run some more comprehensive tests. After getting a better compression tester, I found that the engine has 135 to 145 PSI in all cylinders. The engine was unshrouded & I found that the heads looked VERY fresh. I also found a couple of bad oil leaks. The leak down tests showed no blow by from the rings, no blow by from the intake valves, & no blow by from the exhaust valves. This engine is in pretty good internal condition. When there is oil all over the air cooled engine, it's not necessarily because of excessive blow by. It was the leaks that caused the mess.
I think I have the carb pretty dialed in. It runs smooth, idles great & no longer floods. The Holley fuel regulater helped fix that.
I rebuilt the turbo a 2nd & 3rd time. Put it all back together with the correct 180 turbine & impellor. It ran great BUT IT STILL HAD NO BOOST ! ? ? ? I took the turbo off again & found a large ( 1 1/2") piece of exhaust gasket jamming the turbine. That sure explained the no boost issue. I removed the piece & made sure the turbine still spun OK, put on another oil seal & re installed the turbine. It still smoked. Today, I got the car on the highway, up to temperature, the smoking subsided as the plastic seal retainer burned off the shaft, AN THE TURBO MAKES 7 TO 8 psi BOOST.
This has been a real learning experience for me, guys. I had a tremendous amount of support from you guys here on this forum, and I finally have my 180 Corsa running like it should and I have to say THANK YOU for your help.
Doug Ward

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 22, 2019 06:42PM

Hooray!! and Congrats....

So glad you went back and started with the basics!

My '66 Turbo car came to me after the last 5 owners failed to get boost... no oil problems though..

Comp. test showed all was well. Turbo spun with finger...


While working on the backup light problem.... looked over at the muffler.... looked like a Turbo unit.... but had a reducer to it's 1-1/2" inlet!!

Dawned on me what the custom "straight pipe with Turnout" in the trunk was for! Swapped it and started working on "Boost Control" GGG

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 22, 2019 06:57PM

DOUG WARD Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
, AN THE TURBO MAKES 7 TO 8 psi BOOST.


Terrific Doug, it may get better with use, but thats a PSI you can feel. I got a Clark's non NOS muffler years ago. It had 2 1/2" connections but it it was necked down a bunch inside. Have no idea if they are still them that way, but it was a boost killer. If you get it well heated and its in the 40s ambient you might see more than that if you stay on it.
>

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Engine runs strong but no boost.
Posted by: larry202br ()
Date: November 22, 2019 07:42PM

Good news! Glad you figured it out!

1961 rampside with a 65 / 67 110 engine, car four speed.
1965 convertible
1966 Custom two door/four door 180 Turbo.

KC0SKX
Olathe, ks
HACOA

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