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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: alan_smithee ()
Date: May 13, 2019 05:44PM

SteveInMarietta Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No problem shifting or driving once the vehicle is rolling. Problem is only when first getting the vehicle engaged in first gear.
>
> Thanks Tim.
> Steve



So I experience this as well with my 62 4 spd. I dont get as much chatter with a little more gas as I let out the clutch. No problems in any other gear though. I had a similar thing with a 3 spd Mustang mated up to a 200 cid 6 cyl. Always just chalked it up to the gearing

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 14, 2019 11:59PM


So what is the first thing you remove/disconnect when dropping the powertrain (after disconnecting the battery)?

I like to begin down below


The axles get pulled - brakes still look'n good


Here's the early '61 style clutch linkage; was disconnected.



Speaking of the axles, one ancillary project is to replace a universal joint yoke since there is noticeable play between the splines on the left side. Hoping the wear was to the splines of the yoke not the axle, I had replacement yokes cleaned and painted and ready to go;


Alas, the replacement yoke was still loose on the left side, and I'll need to replace the axle. Actually, I'm wondering if the right side axle should be replaced also? The yoke slipped over the splines of the axle with only a slight tap with a hammer, and while I can detect no free play, I worried that the splines may fail.

How tightly should the splines of the yoke and axle mesh?
Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: May 15, 2019 04:44AM

Several unanswered questions here.

The chattering on start up is an FC issue because of the clutch cable arrangement. I have had factory stock do the same thing. GM's cure was the bolt stop arrangement. There was a pretty hefty bracket bolted to the body horse collar and a botl was screwed into that with a clearance then set to something like 1/4". When the engine would start to move forward it would hit the stop and then not release the clutch.
What happens when this chatter starts is the engine moves forward as you start moving. This releases the clutch and the pressure is released and the engine moves back and the clutch re-engages and the engine moves forward and the clutch releases, repeat several times a second. There is your chatter.

what is the cure? Mounts are the first place to start, even the REAR mount. The GM stop or equivalent is the second and lastly MAYBE clutch parts.

As far as the splines go try other yokes first. You can also look at the clean yokes and tell how much wear is in them. You need to look at the very end where the axle splines do not engage. How much of a ledge is there in the spline tells you whether to even try the yoke. As far as the one the slipped on with just a tap will last a long time, I always use some grease or anti sieze on the splines.

How tight should the splines be? Not as tight as you think! The only reason they come off hard is because of rust. I don't ever recall hearing of a special tool to install the yokes on the assembly line so it would have to be a lubed light press assembled with a light tap.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 15, 2019 05:02AM

Ken,
As usual, very informative. Thanks. Is the "bolt stop" to which you refer the same thing that served to prevent the transmission from popping out of gear?
Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 16, 2019 08:26AM


Dropped the engine yesterday,

went very smoothly, and here it sits on the motorcycle jack I modified for this purpose. Since I do this alone, I remove as many impediments as reasonable, so I removed the starter so it would get hung up on rear control arm. I removed some fuel lines that extended beyond the engine shrouding, and the alternator, to minimize the clearance I would need to roll the engine out.

Today I set the powertrain on wooden supports and reversed the jack so that I can use it to support the diff/trans unit.

I have some custom wood blocks that allow the front end to rest flat.

Is there a secret to getting the powertrain perfectly level so that the input shaft easily pulls out of the clutch (rather than the transmission)? I usually need to fuss and jiggle to get it right:

But it actually wasn't too difficult, and I anxiously unscrewed the pressure plate, to find ...


an oil impregnated clutch disk - I suspect a leaky throw-out bear shaft seal.

At first I was concerned that the pressure plate and flywheel were worn:

They felt rough with circular grooves, but a little degreaser showed this to be gunk melded to the surfaces by the clutch disk. And with some cleaning, both look fine.


So, just maybe, this won't cost as much as I feared???

Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: alan_smithee ()
Date: May 16, 2019 10:54AM

SteveInMarietta Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dropped the engine yesterday,
>
> went very smoothly, and here it sits on the motorcycle jack I modified for this purpose. Since I do this alone, I remove as many impediments as reasonable, so I removed the starter so it would get hung up on rear control arm. I removed some fuel lines that extended beyond the engine shrouding, and the alternator, to minimize the clearance I would need to roll the engine out.
>
> Today I set the powertrain on wooden supports and reversed the jack so that I can use it to support the diff/trans unit.
>
> I have some custom wood blocks that allow the front end to rest flat.
>
> Is there a secret to getting the powertrain perfectly level so that the input shaft easily pulls out of the clutch (rather than the transmission)? I usually need to fuss and jiggle to get it right:
>
> But it actually wasn't too difficult, and I anxiously unscrewed the pressure plate, to find ...
>
>
> an oil impregnated clutch disk - I suspect a leaky throw-out bear shaft seal.
>
> At first I was concerned that the pressure plate and flywheel were worn:
>
> They felt rough with circular grooves, but a little degreaser showed this to be gunk melded to the surfaces by the clutch disk. And with some cleaning, both look fine.
>
>
> So, just maybe, this won't cost as much as I feared???
>
> Steve
>


keep posting updates. you are inspiring me!! also I am hoping thats my same problem

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 16, 2019 01:07PM

Use 6" guide pins in the threaded holes on the Bell housing.

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 16, 2019 02:44PM

Matt,
Aha!
Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 16, 2019 05:14PM

smileys with beer

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 17, 2019 11:42AM


Parts are ordered from Clarks. Just heard no new 9" welded clutch disks are in stock, so I had to get a rebuilt one.

I've determined the splines of the left side axle (not the yoke) are worn. Fortunately I have a couple extra axles with bearings -- have had them for over 30 years. I repacked the grease in each and choose the one with the smoothest rotation. Derusted with a wire wheel, primed and painted, it's ready to install.


The exhaust crossover tube had never been painted and was rusting pretty well. But it is salvageable and can be well protected in future with high temperature paint. This took some extensive derusting. So I put it in my electrolytic deruster for several days, then soaked it in POR rust removal solution over night, and then wire wheel cleaned it for about an hour - which brought it back to raw metal (granted rather pock-marked from rust removal).



I've used VHT Flame Proof paint on the exhaust manifolds and crossover pipe before and it has held up perfectly, so that's what I used again here.
Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: May 17, 2019 03:58PM

I'd think about one of Clarks NEW FC pipes.... They rival a D & M Big single...

1-1/2" OD tube....merge collector.

End of this pipe was modified for use with the turbo

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2019 04:00PM by MattNall.

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 18, 2019 02:29AM


Yeah, I almost bought one; got one for the Firebrier. The poor design of the right side exhaust port of this pipe has always bothered me, probably generates some back pressure, but I decided I didn't want to spend another $150+.
Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 27, 2019 12:57AM

While waiting for parts to arrive I took care of another needed task - reattaching the right side brake cable bracket that had fallen off a while back; without this, the right side parking brake will not apply. Here's where the bracket is supposed to be attached:

btw: for those of you dealing with tight clutch cables, notice the extra length of this one; there's actually slack in the cable before it attached to the clutch linkage. I'm not sure but suspect this is a 126" (not 123.5") cable.

At any rate, here's the brake cable bracket prepared for reattachment

I drilled 3 holes in the bracket and then corresponding holes in the sill (not shown in this image). One hole was used to temporarily sheet metal screw the bracket in place. After initially plug welding the other two holes, the screw was removed and that hole was welded.

You can see the flashing I used as a heat shield to protect the heater duct. After whacking on the bracket several times with a hammer to test strength, the welds were ground smooth, primed and painted.

Back at the bellhousing, I removed the old pilot bushing using the grease-pressure method - the hole was filled with grease and then my cut-off input shaft tool was inserted and gently hammered.

The old bushing slowly extracted itself, and, after adding more grease a few times, it popped out. After cleaning out the grease, the new bushing was gently tapped back in.

The clutch has been reassembled with a rebuilt clutch disk - Clarks was out-of-stock on new ones.


Meanwhile, the root of the problem was identified inside the throwout bearing shaft; a damaged seal - the result of a goofy mistake:

The retainer ring was removed and behind it I found two seals. It's been several decades since the clutch had been previously rebuilt, and I apparently inserted a new seal forgetting to first remove the old one. The result was that the input shaft rubbed against the retainer ring (damaging the ring but fortunately not the shaft) and, I suspect generating enough heat to cause the rubber of the seal to harden and crack. I think I'll only use one seal this time.

btw: I'm quite pleased with the exteriors of the rear axle and transmission, which cleaned up perfectly with a little degreaser.

Both are painted with the glossy grey POR-15.

Speaking of goofy mistakes, unfortunately I've now had to order a throwout bearing. The old one seamed perfectly fine until I dropped it into a container of degreaser, which I feared dissolved the internal lube!!

Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: Wagon Master ()
Date: May 27, 2019 01:31PM

It has been my experience that if you do some careful measuring you'll see there is plenty of room in the stock snout for 2 seals and the split ring.
PM me if you'd like my "2 seals in a stock snout installation procedure."


'29 Ford Model A Tudor
'61 700 Lakewood 110 4 speed
'69 Monza Convert. 140 Auto.
'70 Dodge Challenger R/T 440 4 speed

Been aircooled since 1973
Northwest Ohio

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: May 27, 2019 02:00PM

You may want to check that input shaft to see if it is straight. 2 seals won't make the shaft tear up the "retainer". That isn't a retainer at all. It is a spacer to keep the shaft from damaging the seal on assembly. You'll notice it isn't even close to as tight in the bore as the seal is.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: May 27, 2019 02:35PM

2nd, put that shaft on some "V" blocks and check. Also the seals may have been damaged at install. That ring protects them some if you don't have a straight alignment of the trans and engine.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: May 27, 2019 05:58PM

This is why I like to describe my repair steps on the forum - I frequently get great tips and learn new things. Yeah, I wondered why the split ring washer was a much looser fit than the seal. I'll need to take some measurements when I get home, but it certainly seemed that with the two seals the washer was up far enough to rub the input shaft, which I'll check for straightness - maybe the seals also were not seated all the way down?
Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: May 27, 2019 09:15PM

Possibly. Put in one seal and take some measurements to see if you have room for 2.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: SteveInMarietta ()
Date: June 04, 2019 11:35PM


Good news on the input shaft. I took it to my local machine shop and they took the necessary measurements to show no more than a couple thousandths runout; so the shaft looks to be OK.

I looked at the clearance between the input shaft and a couple of seals

and measured about 1.7 mm between the ridge on which the release bearing shaft seal bottoms to the base of the input shaft splines.

The height of two seals and the split ring is a little less than that (~1.6 mm)

I'm not sure if all seals and split rings have the same dimensions, but that's plenty of clearance. However, it seems to me that if all are not properly seated, when two seals are installed the input shaft might ride on the split ring. This would explain the camfering of the inner edge of the split ring that I observed. Failure to seat fully might result from not wanting to crush the seals with too much pressure during installation.


Steve

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Re: Old garage, new clutch
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: June 05, 2019 05:15AM

Don't forget to check to make sure the seal ID is correct for your input shaft.

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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