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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: January 19, 2019 01:00PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kevin,
> 2-stroke motorcycles generally are built that way
> but there are plenty of 4-strokes that have studs
> from the crankcase through the head like a
> Corvair. They didn't have issues.

Which 4 stroke air cooled motorcycles can you think of that had all aluminum cylinders that had studs attaching at the block holding the head down? there are none that I'm aware of. Steel bores pressed into a aluminum outer cylinder don't count (Honda did that a lot) Water pumpers don't count either because they limit the longitudinal expansion with water, and they nearly all have such short strokes (giving a short cylinder length) that the total possible expansion is limited by geometry as well. Also, the expected life between rebuilds is very different in those engines vs the automotive applications, so
what works for one doesn't necessarily work in the other... small differences in application and expected usage count for a lot.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 01:32PM

Why doesn't one with a steel or iron liner count when most of the cylinder was aluminum? Some had very little iron in them when they were cast in liners. The pressed in iron liner ones I worked with didn't clamp the liner they clamped the aluminum cylinder. The liner had a flange at the top that clamped the head gasket and the bottom was free.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: January 19, 2019 02:38PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why doesn't one with a steel or iron liner count
> when most of the cylinder was aluminum? Some had
> very little iron in them when they were cast in
> liners. The pressed in iron liner ones I worked
> with didn't clamp the liner they clamped the
> aluminum cylinder. The liner had a flange at the
> top that clamped the head gasket and the bottom
> was free.

The assembly for those has the bore liner constraining the length expansion of the aluminum one way or another, and so tends to "stretch" the bore when hot
and relax it when cold... not really a big deal for the studs as the total expansion for the assembly becomes more like what the studs are able to handle and not what the aluminum would do on its own if not constrained by the bore maerial. Theres 85% more expansion per degree for aluminum than steel, and it amounts to how much the aluminum can be constrained and how much extra stress that constraining causes, or reduce the length of the pieces subjected to the expansion or reduce the temperature difference or some combination... its those kind of design considerations that determine wether or not stuff like that will work or not, not wether or not it was or was not done on a motorcycle it will work on a car. I know for a fact that Ray Sedman did try Nikasil cylinders for one of his customers YEARS ago, and if he now says he wont warrantee his work when using those.... its because he knows from past experience that it might be iffy.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 02:41PM

What specific reason did Ray give?

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 02:57PM

Here's a 4-stroke all aluminum cylinder with through studs:
[www.bing.com]

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 03:26PM

BMW motorcycles have been using aluminum Nikasil cylinders with through studs since around 1981. R100 would have a similar piston size with 500cc per cylinder.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: January 19, 2019 03:37PM

No kidding! like you feel a need to educate us on this like no one else has heard of this or been around motorcycles like you have ... How long is the bore that is trapped by the studs? They are way short compared to the trapped length on Corvairs, so the total expansion possible is limited that way. Again what works for one doesn't work for another, necessarily. It also doesn't look like an air cooled cylinder either. Rays concern has always been about how well, or not the studs or the crankcase can withstand the repeated extra stress that the cyclical expansion and contraction will cause... for one customer that takes a car out a few times a year, maybe none of that matters, for another that wants drive it a lot perhaps it matters a bunch. I know he did do this for one customer a very long time ago now, and has never said anything more about Nikasil cylinders on Corvairs. Maybe you might want to take a chance on a set of those expensive things and see how it works for you after 50000 to 10000 miles and then come back and tell us that it worked or not...

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 03:47PM

The BMW is air cooled and it probably is shorter but it is a similar displacement so it has to be fairly long.
You asked a good question:
"Which 4 stroke air cooled motorcycles can you think of that had all aluminum cylinders that had studs attaching at the block holding the head down?"
I answered it.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: January 19, 2019 04:36PM

Good for you to find that, but still this doesn't answer wether or not it will work out well for long in a Corvair. Perhaps you should try this and find out.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 04:48PM

It's tempting but a lot of money if it doesn't hold up.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: January 19, 2019 04:54PM

Not to jump in here too much, but it would seem some type of alloy studs with a more similar expansion rate would help, but then more $$$$. GM did play with lined aluminum jugs, but the $$$$ stopped that.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 04:56PM

It would be interesting to compare the stud diameter and torque spec on the BMW engine with iron liners to the later engine with Nikasil.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: January 19, 2019 04:58PM

Dunno, my Beemer is water cooled.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: January 19, 2019 05:00PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a 4-stroke all aluminum cylinder with
> through studs:
> [www.bing.com]
> cid=DC0dDXwH&id=092D10A18652C81E38B31A8D297E7C65BF
> 25DF8A&thid=OIP.DC0dDXwH7ySJoq2rIkYc_gHaFj&mediaur
> l=http%3A%2F%2Fi223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd1
> 34%2Fwin_26%2FDSCN4203.jpg&exph=768&expw=1024&q=mo
> torcycles+with+chrome+bores&simid=6080359760292126
> 66&selectedindex=22&ajaxhist=0&vt=0


Yeah but it is all crappy inside!
Looks like the aluminum has expanded more than the coating, and it is delaminating and peeling/flaking off.
Isn't there any better pictures of this that you could find as an example?
This picture seems to prove the other guys point.
If it is not water cooled, than just what is that chamber on the side of the cylinder?
I am not familiar with motorcycle engines.

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza - 140 4-spd. driver

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: January 19, 2019 05:19PM

American Mel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> joelsplace Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Here's a 4-stroke all aluminum cylinder with
> > through studs:
> >
> [www.bing.com]
>
> >
> cid=DC0dDXwH&id=092D10A18652C81E38B31A8D297E7C65BF
>
> >
> 25DF8A&thid=OIP.DC0dDXwH7ySJoq2rIkYc_gHaFj&mediaur
>
> >
> l=http%3A%2F%2Fi223.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd1
>
> >
> 34%2Fwin_26%2FDSCN4203.jpg&exph=768&expw=1024&q=mo
>
> >
> torcycles+with+chrome+bores&simid=6080359760292126
>
> > 66&selectedindex=22&ajaxhist=0&vt=0
>
>
> Yeah but it is all crappy inside!
> Looks like the aluminum has expanded more than the
> coating, and it is delaminating and
> peeling/flaking off.
> Isn't there any better pictures of this that you
> could find as an example?
> This picture seems to prove the other guys point.
> If it is not water cooled, than just what is that
> chamber on the side of the cylinder?
> I am not familiar with motorcycle engines.

Mel- that is an "Electrofusion" one... Nikasil doesn't do that.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: January 19, 2019 05:30PM

There has got to be a reason why Porsche moved away from the Nikasil cylinders.

Does anyone know the reason? And "money" does not seem like an issue with Porsche. So there must have been a technical rationality.

Is their any supplier of "big bore" Corvair cylinders still around?

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 05:35PM

"Is their any supplier of "big bore" Corvair cylinders still around?"
The vendor we are talking about.

I didn't say that first one was air cooled.
The BMWs are or at least were for a long time.

One reason Porsche may have stopped using them could be that aluminum may not be able to handle the boost pressure? It's a question I was wondering about also.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: January 19, 2019 07:29PM

Well Monza109, if someone has to lie about what they will do with a car in order to buy it, that is dishonest. What else will they be dishonest about?confused smiley

Story goes to show moral character of the guy. Not snarky at all, more of a warning.

Prospective buyer not being shown into the shop? Big red flag. Sounds like shady used car dealings. Not a friendly Corvair environment. Again, not snarky, warning.

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: john.jackson ()
Date: January 19, 2019 08:34PM

Just thinking here, nothing more.

I have observed Autobone's Corvair offerings on Ebay for some years. Prices seem high. Even if everything is done right. Just an observation.

By searching, I have found several good reports on Autobone's products here on this forum. Also found a customer here who is happy with his 3.6875 cast cylinders. And a couple of more favorable reports over the years

Realize I am taking this thread off topic.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: January 19, 2019 09:12PM

jjohnsonjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not to jump in here too much, but it would seem
> some type of alloy studs with a more similar
> expansion rate would help,
but then more $$$$. GM
> did play with lined aluminum jugs, but the $$$$
> stopped that.


I am not an engineer, like some on this thread, but this does not sound like a great idea to me.
If your cylinder grows in length, and your studs grow with it, So that things don't break, then for every degree that your engine heats up, your compression ratio DROPS ! ! !
Seems that your push rods will get loose also ! ! !
I think that you would have more success if you searched for an alloy for the cylinders that had similar expansion rate as the stud, rather than an alloy for the studs to expand the same as the cylinders.
Until then, . . . . . .
The more I read on this topic, it sounds like the General actually knew what he was doing, and we would be best to leave well enough alone in this department.
Do we have any engineers that would care to tell me how wrong I am?

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza - 140 4-spd. driver

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