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Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 18, 2019 05:58AM

[www.ebay.com]

Anyone used these or this vendor?

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: January 18, 2019 07:24AM

Two of my engine builders won't use them. They say there is no good data on what the expansion will be when at temp. That means no way to properly torque the heads. Someone will do the testing, some day. They are used in aircraft Corvair motors. Those never get hot. I do know one person who says he is building a motor with them. I'll ask the next time I see him.

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: ral1963 ()
Date: January 18, 2019 07:59AM

I always hate to pass along speculation, but I have also heard concerns about expansion rates.

I had also heard that Porsche ended up using specific head studs paired with Nikasil cylinders along with unique torque specs due to the expansion differences.

A local Porsche race shop was offering them at one point, but high cost, made for no sales and he quit offering them. I never got a chance to talk to him about his thoughts in a Corvair motor and his suggestions as to proper setup.

Sadly it would take someone with deep enough pockets to build and test on a car engine using various torque specs to build criteria for using these on street/race
engine builds.

Rick Loving
Corvair historian & chronicler of useless facts
CORSA
Performance Corvair Group
Chicagoland Corvair Enthusiasts

RAL1963@COMCAST.NET
Just south of Chicago IL

Current Ride
63 Sprint Vert 140/4sp

Past Rides
66 Turbo Coupe 180/4sp
60 700 Sedan 80hp PG
63 Monza Vert 102hp 4 spd
63 Monza Coupe 140hp 4 spd
63 700 Sedan 80hp 3 spd
64 Monza Vert 110hp 4 spd
64 Monza Coupe 95hp 3 spd
64 Monza Sedan 110hp PG
65 500 Coupe 95hp 4 spd
65 Monza Coupe 110hp PG
65 Corsa Coupe 140hp 4 spd
68 Monza Vert 140hp 3 spd

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: bucketboss ()
Date: January 18, 2019 08:18AM

They are used in air cooled Porsche motors extensively. I do know that Porsche had head stud issues in the 80s when they introduced Dilivar studs to help with different expansion rates, but they were brittle and broke occasionally. I think the P guys use good steel studs these days with good results.

Dave
Stillwater, MN
66 Corsa Vert turbo
65 Corsa Vert 140
65 Corsa Coupe
70 Porsche 914-6

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: JimBrandberg ()
Date: January 18, 2019 08:22AM

As a road racer, I was always concerned about weight. I held a VW nikasil in my hands and fell in love.
There was a guy named JVH Roberts on Fastvairs who seemed to know all about Porsche stuff and the delivar (sp?) studs. Minimal activity on Fastvairs these days.
When I rebuilt the La Boa Sports Racer engine it had the Salih cylinders, essentially a steel sleeve with aluminum fins pressed on the outside. They were quite lovely as well.
The guy I knew with the VW cylinders said he had a problem with a burr inside. He claimed the rings jumped over the burr and lost cylinder pressure. He didn't know how to remove the burr. He's a machinist so I was in no position to argue with him.
VW crankcases only use 8mm or 5/16 studs and he didn't mention any alarm over stud pullout from expansion. He's a VW and Subaru experimental aircraft guy.
With the La Boa project I really really fell in love when lifting and carrying the 914 transaxle without busting a nut.

Jim Brandberg
Isanti, MN
CorvairRepair.com

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: January 18, 2019 08:27AM

From the bottom of the ad.
"This is for a set of 6 custom big bore corvair aluminum cylinders.Bore sizes from stock to 3.700 dia lengths stock to plus .375 100% machined nikisil coated made to order with a stroked crank you can get over 200cid 2-4 weeks Please take the time to view our other listings. AUTOBOHN ENGINES THE PONTIAC CORVAIR VW GUYS!! 616-897-7679 8.00am-6.00pm Made in U.S.A. no china junk! THINKING OF MAKING THESE OUT OF STEEL WOULD BE ABOUT HALF THE PRICE LET US KNOW IF YOU WOULD BE INTERESTED IN SUCH AN ITEM!Would be much better than modified VW parts.As a side note we were the supplier of Auto-Craft racing cylinders.MADE IN THE U.S.A."

Also has this ad post else where.
> > > Corvair Corsa Spyder 140 H.P. 180 H.P.Turbo Big Bore Cast Iron Cylinders < < <

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza - 140 4-spd. driver



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2019 08:29AM by American Mel.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 18, 2019 08:35AM

Lots of motorcycle engines use aluminum cylinders and don't have any issues.
The burr doesn't seem likely unless it was damaged. The Nikasil plating is honed after application.
Does anyone know how much weight these would save?

I'm not following your point Mel. He sells aluminum and iron cylinders and is considering steel. He does have all kinds of stuff listed.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: jimc ()
Date: January 18, 2019 10:10AM

Though I don't have the Corvair Nikasils on hand, I do have a set of 6, Porsche Nikasil cylinders that you might use for a close comparison.

Using a digital scale, I weighed one Nikasil cylinder and a cast iron Corvair.

Porsche Nikasil cylinder weighs........... 29.5 ozs
Cast iron Corvair weighs ................. 78.8 ozs.

If my math is accurate that is an savings of est., 18.5 lbs. total.

Jimc
1965 Corsa
HACOA Member

CORSA 2017 Concours Senior Gold Award
AACA 2015 Award

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: January 18, 2019 10:17AM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lots of motorcycle engines use aluminum cylinders
> and don't have any issues.
> The burr doesn't seem likely unless it was
> damaged. The Nikasil plating is honed after
> application.
> Does anyone know how much weight these would
> save?
>
> I'm not following your point Mel. He sells
> aluminum and iron cylinders and is considering
> steel. He does have all kinds of stuff listed.


Probably because I was NOT trying to make a point.
I was simply trying to provide additional information to those who may not have visited the webpage link.

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza - 140 4-spd. driver

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 18, 2019 10:21AM

Ah that makes sense

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: vairmech ()
Date: January 18, 2019 11:53AM

I just have a bit of an issue with who is selling them. He is the same person that snatched up a car only to resell it on ebay when he told the owner otherwise if I remember the story correctly. I went to his place to look at the car for someone and he talked a big game but would not let me see his shop! What unimpressed me is he had done everything and wasn't afraid to tell you.

Ken Hand
Handy Car Care
248 613 8586

Vairmech@aol.com

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: Kyle_in_Mich ()
Date: January 18, 2019 12:26PM

I am put off by the seller using the same photos for multiple listings of different items. Seems quite shady to me.

On topic though, I would be interested to try the cylinders. I just can't afford to be a test dummy.

CORSA Member
Traverse City,MI
Daily driver- Bicycle
Fun driver/project- 65 Corsa 140/4 speed

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: January 19, 2019 09:25AM

Porsche did use them for a while but discontinued them soon after. They had so many warranty problems that they got a very bad reputation. Like I said, my engine builder (Ray Sedman) won't warranty an engine with them. That says enough for me. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of them but can't justify spending all that money on an engine that might fail early.

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 09:35AM

In the motorcycle world in the 70s they used some of what they called chrome bore coating that had failures from flaking. I've never looked into that. When they started using Nikasil I almost never saw any failures that weren't just severe wear failures due to an engine sucking in sand or other problems unrelated to the coating. I seem to remember a short run of YZ250s in the 90s that were warranties because they did something wrong in the coating but I don't remember what.
Is it possible some people remember the chrome bores and are confusing that with Nikasil?

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: Monza109 ()
Date: January 19, 2019 09:39AM

"I just have a bit of an issue with who is selling them. He is the same person that snatched up a car only to resell it on ebay when he told the owner otherwise if I remember the story correctly. I went to his place to look at the car for someone and he talked a big game but would not let me see his shop! What unimpressed me is he had done everything and wasn't afraid to tell you."

This seems to me to be a rather snarky comment. Once anyone buys a car it's theirs to do with want they want. You trying to sneak into their shop to gather information is a crappy thing to do. I can't blame them for not allowing you access. It's none of your business. Why talk crap about this outfit when you don't seem to have any personal experience doing business with them? Your comments speak more about you than them.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 09:53AM

Who said anything about sneaking into anyone's shop?

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: January 19, 2019 10:21AM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who said anything about sneaking into anyone's
> shop?


Agreed.
I see nothing snarky in the comment, and for that matter, if I went to a shop location to look at a car, and the owner was bragging up everything he had done, and was capable of doing, I would be interested in seeing his shop also.
I love to see others shops, especially since I do not have any of the serious equipment needed to do most things we need.
Someone who has a "Commercial Shop" should be willing to show it to people.
An unwillingness to do so, would make me think that he had something to hide.
What is he ashamed of?
Does he really have a shop?
Or is it a warehouse for receiving goods from China, and only claiming to be a shop making American products ? ? ?
When you are evasive, it causes one to start questioning everything you do!

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza - 140 4-spd. driver

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: January 19, 2019 10:25AM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the motorcycle world in the 70s they used some
> of what they called chrome bore coating that had
> failures from flaking. I've never looked into
> that. When they started using Nikasil I almost
> never saw any failures that weren't just severe
> wear failures due to an engine sucking in sand or
> other problems unrelated to the coating. I seem
> to remember a short run of YZ250s in the 90s that
> were warranties because they did something wrong
> in the coating but I don't remember what.
> Is it possible some people remember the chrome
> bores and are confusing that with Nikasil?


The chrome bore method is called electrofusion, and really is
just a heavy layer of chrome over aluminum, and it will come
off, as the chrome layer is not well attached and tends to chip
at the edge of the ports in 2 strokes. Nikasil is an entirely different
coating! It is short for Nickel silicon carbide and the coating itself
is incredibly hard, and does not peel up. People have had engines seize up
from a loss of oil flow when running these kind of cylinders, and find that
there is no scarring or damage to the coating, only the piston itself got stuck
to the cylinder. That kind of example shows how durable the coating is, but
there is only limited conclusions that can be drawn from usage on motorcycles
that use this kind of coating because of how the heads are attached to the
cylinder, which is short studs mounted in the top of the cylinder to attach the
heads. Potential problems with expansion and contraction differences don't really apply here because of the short distance of expansion. When all aluminum
cylinders have to be held down to the heads via steel studs attached to the case, the entire length of the bore is expanding potentially much more than the studs, and the potential for problems is much greater in this kind of installation. The studs must be able to stretch a lot to allow the extra expansion or the studs must "somehow" expand at a rate closer to the aluminum cylinders, or theres going to be problems with cylinder distortion from too high of a clamping load at engine running temperatures or head gasket's being blown from too little stud tension when cold... this what the fuss is about with Nikasil cylinders being used on Corvairs, and it is easy to see why builders might refuse to use these. It is not the durability of the coating, its all about the relative expansion rates of the cylinders and the cylinder studs.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: Phil Dally ()
Date: January 19, 2019 10:33AM

I am absolutely not picking sides...just a question.

Do we have current information on any racing history?

Or records of builds by this particular shop owner?

This seller has been on flea bay for quite a while.

So you would think there would be some something.

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Re: Nikasil cylinders on eBay
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: January 19, 2019 11:48AM

Kevin,
2-stroke motorcycles generally are built that way but there are plenty of 4-strokes that have studs from the crankcase through the head like a Corvair. They didn't have issues.

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