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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 04, 2019 10:48AM

I was thinking that it would not be necessary because I will not be doing clutch dumps and torque in the turbo occurs after it is moving. Figured I'd put it out there before I put it in the block.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: March 04, 2019 07:56PM

toms73novass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What are thoughts on drilling and tapping flywheel
> holes to 3/8"-24?
>
> Necessary on street driven car?


None of it is "necessary" on a street car, and neither are forged pistons, even on high boost Turbos, but if you skip those things, and something breaks
you will wish you did it. Much better to have doweled the hub and drilled and
tapped the hub for 3/8-24 and not need to than it is to break something and wish you had! I drilled and tapped mine when I doweled the hub, I knew it probably wasn't necessary, but I liked the idea of adding a little extra overkill, especially because it was so easy to do. The main reasons to open up
the holes to the larger thread size are that grade 8.8 3/8-24 are much easier
to find than the stock ones are, and the shoulders of the larger bolts fit the
flywheel holes more like they should than the stock ones do, with minimal slop.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: March 05, 2019 02:51PM

63turbo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> toms73novass Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What are thoughts on drilling and tapping
> flywheel
> > holes to 3/8"-24?
> >
> > Necessary on street driven car?
>
>
> None of it is "necessary" on a street car, and
> neither are forged pistons, even on high boost
> Turbos, but if you skip those things, and
> something breaks
> you will wish you did it. Much better to have
> doweled the hub and drilled and
> tapped the hub for 3/8-24 and not need to than it
> is to break something and wish you had! I drilled
> and tapped mine when I doweled the hub, I knew it
> probably wasn't necessary, but I liked the idea of
> adding a little extra overkill, especially because
> it was so easy to do. The main reasons to open up
> the holes to the larger thread size are that grade
> 8.8 3/8-24 are much easier
> to find than the stock ones are, and the shoulders
> of the larger bolts fit the
> flywheel holes more like they should than the
> stock ones do, with minimal slop.



Have you ever seen any factory bolts break, not counting over torqueing or under torqueing?

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

[corvaircenter.com]

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: March 05, 2019 02:53PM

The factory bolts are plenty strong enough to break the spider gears.

Joel
Northlake, TX
4 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: March 05, 2019 03:03PM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The factory bolts are plenty strong enough to
> break the spider gears.



I was going to mention that, the bolts are not the weakest link.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

[corvaircenter.com]

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: March 05, 2019 05:02PM

Absolutely theres lots of other things that can and do break before the flywheel bolts will fail... that is not the point! heavily stressed bolts
holding down something as important as a flywheel ought be treated a little
more carefully than other low strength connections, and although flywheel bolts
aren't famous for breaking, they do rust just like every other steel bolt, they do get over torqued on occasion, and they don't have some magic indicator
built into them that will tell you when they've been over stressed... They shouldn't be re-used because of things like that, and a visual inspection for
cracks isn't going to cut it either. The only way you will ever know that those bolts ought to have been replaced a long time ago is when they either
come off with less torque than they were installed at or fail to hold the torque when installing. Either scenario means you took a chance on having a flywheel come off. Both of those admittedly rare instances are reasons to
buy new flywheel bolts. The stock bolts are a bit oddball, and not nearly as easy to obtain new as 3/8-24. The stock bolts do not fit the flywheel or the washer ring as well as they should, and a good snug fit on the bolt shank is
good way to prevent loosening... all the bolts are acting more like dowel pins
and share the shear load more equally. I sure wouldn't bother doing anything like that on a stock car or one that was mildy warmed over a little but on a hot rod, given how easy and inexpensive it is to do, the extra overkill is a good idea, burnouts or not!

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: March 06, 2019 03:33AM

It might be a good idea to test the bolts by measuring stretch.

Joel
Northlake, TX
4 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 06, 2019 05:48PM

Well, I made them 3/8-24 no turning back now....

I also have the crank clearance smack in the middle of the tolerance range 1.5-1.7 thou.

Waiting to get my rods back from the machine shop to true up the large ends after putting in the arp bolts, the measurements were a bit off.

Next is to get the cam in the freezer and set everything up for the gear install. I think I am going to try the Lathe technique in Seth's book. With the hydraulic press as backup. I also plan on adding two set screws.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: March 06, 2019 05:55PM

Freezer is good , dry ice is better, it s cheap at my welding supply shop.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

[corvaircenter.com]

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 07, 2019 02:58AM

Will check it out...

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 09, 2019 08:01PM

Had a chance to degree in cam and all looked good.

I didn't have a degree wheel that I like so I made one up using my laser cutter out of some scrap plastic is is about 12" in diameter making taking measurements easy.



I also made a "lifter on a stick" to make taking measurements easier with the dial indicator.



Here you can see the degree wheel which I placed on the back side to be out of the way of all the action on the rear of the engine.



It it may not seem easy to read the values but they were very easy to see in person.

This was the practice run in pressing on the gear to the cam. All was set up and heated the gear and the cam was in the freezer over night with the washer and keyway all ready to go. It was actually a piece of cake and slid right in with out that much force on the tailstock.



Last was to put two set screws with locktite to make sure it does not go anywhere in the future.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: March 09, 2019 08:09PM

This better run well with all your effort!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 12, 2019 03:40PM

Finally got the rods back from the machine shop and they are right on, was a bit twerked at the price, but what are you going to do. (in the end I could have purchased redone rods with arp bolts for slightly less what I have in the rods)

Got my deck height measurement and did my compression calculation based on milling a pocket in the top of the piston.

Here I used a 3d solids modeling program to calculate the pocket volume and might use the cnc to do the milling to match the drawing. Depth of pocket .116" with a .125 radius edge.



Drew it with out pocket and the difference in volume was .283 cu in or 4.6cc

Here is my compression calculations, if you see an error shout!



My final compression should be 8.9 close enough to 9 for me, I know some will yell at me for running near 9 with a boosted engine, but with electronic timing control, safe guard, methanol injection and the Singh Groove I hope to be fine.

If not I'll be the first to say so when I report back.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2019 03:43PM by toms73novass.

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: March 13, 2019 06:45AM

I got 8.87 CR. I used 3.53" for the ID of the head gasket. I guess I'd CC that piston pocket after machining. That's how I wanted to do it, but no machine shop around would, so I just sliced .070"off the half of the piston. How thick is the crown minus the .116" cut?

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

[corvaircenter.com]

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 13, 2019 04:10PM

Ok decided to redo the piston cut, made is larger but shallower, the flat area is still larger than the quench area on the head.



It reduced the depth from .116 to a depth of .050

This will give me a piston top thickness of .270" at the shallowest point which is still thicker than the stock .258" turbo piston.

Also did 3.51 on the head gasket diameter and the compression ratio comes in at 8.95.

Now to do a test cut....

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 15, 2019 05:12PM

I made up a set of softjaws to hold the piston and a few test blanks and made test cuts.




I cc the cut and it was right on at 4.6 cc



Now just have to remeber to do half one way and half the other!




-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 17, 2019 08:43AM

Quick update:

Pistons are all done:



I also started balancing the pistons, however, I was not getting consistent results and I think I need to redesign the off scale holder. I think it is throwing off the reading by adding a bit of twist to the rod.



I am going to make an L bracket and add another chain so that it sits parallel with out the rod on it and hopefully see more consistant results.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: March 17, 2019 09:27AM

toms73novass Wrote:

>
> Now just have to remeber to do half one way and
> half the other!
>
>
Yeah, wasn't paying close attention when installing my rods. Got the numbers mixed up

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

[corvaircenter.com]

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: March 18, 2019 07:04PM

Changed the setup to a much more rigid pole and supported by two chains and got much more repeatable result.

All rods balanced and ready to go.



I also made up a stop for inserting the pins when installing the rods.

The stop allows the pin to come out of the piston half the distance of the gap between the rod and the inner piston sides. So this way I do not need to think when installing the pin on the rod. I will be heating the rods using a light flame and a 450 temperature stick. When the stick begins to melt I know I am at 450 and should stop heating and put it in place and insert pin.



All the pistons , rods and pins are laid out in order so that I do not mess up the orientation.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block
86' BMW 325es
98' Dodge 2500 12v Cummins Diesel with 1200 lb torque!
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: March 18, 2019 07:25PM

Sounds good Tom, I made a jig from plywood and inserted a pin stop. We had an electric WOK that went to 450. So the small rod ends were in that oil. The pins were in a bowl of snow, outside job, HEH. It worked welding glove on the rod hand.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

[corvaircenter.com]

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