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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: September 07, 2019 03:40PM

Joel and JO: it is difficult to solder on
those small parts and ensure afterward you
have made a good seal. The tiniest of
pinholes will allow fuel to seep inside
and fill float with fuel.

I submerged my floats for a couple of
weeks before deciding I had soldered
that tiny side hole fully. I had several
that failed that test too. Then I was
afraid to try and solder a second time,
I was afraid the foam inside would be
saturated in fuel and explode on the
bench.

I am probably to blame for single handedly
causing a shortage of late floats.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 07, 2019 05:12PM

The method I used is the method I believe Dave Bennie uses.

If I have issues I will try something else. grinning smiley drinking smiley

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: September 07, 2019 05:41PM

Dave is definitely the blow through man, so I'm sure it will work fine. Did you ask him what he uses for float height?

BTW really fine work

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa


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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 08, 2019 02:56PM

Just heard back from him, float set as stock are no issue! thumbs up

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: September 08, 2019 08:54PM

toms73novass Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just heard back from him, float set as stock are no issue! thumbs up


thumbs up

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - 140, 4-spd. Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza - Sale pending
.
non-vair
'04 Dodge Cummins Quad Dualy, approaching 400K
17'Terry

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 09, 2019 04:26PM

The carbs are mounted and the linkage installed.

Roger Parents linkages are a work of art! Top notch, smooth as a baby's bottom and precise!



-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 17, 2019 02:15PM

Been working on crossover. Welded whole parameter seam so it would not spread under boost, also added 1/2" risers so that manifold would clear linkage and give a positive lock to hold seals in place so I would not have leaks.

Had to make some longer custom J bolts to hold manifold, ended up making new ones out of stainless from turned down 1/4" bolts, not pictured.

Dave B recommended the inner oil filter seals, they were a bit of a stretch fit but seem to do the job, well.



No leaks at 30 psi!



-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2019 02:17PM by toms73novass.

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 17, 2019 03:38PM

Have the rest, except the blowoff, mocked up ready to weld.





Debating where I should plumb the alcohol injection, if I should put it in the intake elbow so it evenly distributes through all 4 runners or should I put 2 nozzles in the plugs at the top of the intake manifold right below the rear carbs?

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2019 03:41PM by toms73novass.

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 17, 2019 04:21PM

Looks great.... I've forgotten.. what turbo are you running...same a Dave?

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: September 17, 2019 04:45PM

If the alcohol is injected ahead of the carburetors wouldn't it tend to get in the float bowls?

Joel
Northlake, TX
5 Ultravans, Lost count at 100 Corvairs...

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 17, 2019 05:15PM

Don't you mean methanol? Either way you need it to be mixed by all 4 carbs

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 17, 2019 06:48PM

No leaks at 30 psi!

Now you have your wastegate setting! eye popping smiley

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: kmart356 ()
Date: September 17, 2019 06:56PM

or should I put 2 nozzles in the plugs at the top of the intake manifold right below the rear carbs?

Yes. The methanol mix does not need to go through the carbs, inject it as close to cylinders as possible as long as it flows to all cylinders.

Ken
'62 Spyder Coupe
Florida


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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 17, 2019 07:07PM

I think 30 might be a touch too much smoking smiley

Right now I am going to use a stock b hot side with e flow compressor.

I have found some info on blow through carbs with meth injection and the recommendation is pre carb to give more time for the water to absorb the heat it can.

Also, in what I have read it said that it would be best to keep the methanol to 20% or less to keep from disrupting the A/F jetting of the carbs.

The water will help with detonation even if there is no methanol. The methanol will reduce the intake charge temp more but at higher concentration will cause the a/f mixture to get too rich. Relying on the methanol as a source of fuel in a carb engine is dangerous in that you can go lean real quick with out any type of computer control. It is better to just inject mostly water for its detonation abatement abilities.

So unless I find other opposing info I am going to inject just as the elbow enters the 4 leg manifold.

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 17, 2019 07:14PM

kmart356 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> or should I put 2 nozzles in the plugs at the top of the intake manifold right below the rear carbs?
>
> Yes. The methanol mix does not need to go through the carbs, inject it as close to cylinders as possible as long as it flows to all cylinders.


Just saw you response, I know that is the method you have used with success.

The info I had posted above came from a alcohol injection forum that had contributors that were in the industry. They had recommended 4-6" before the throttle plates, which is about middle of the 4 legged runner, I do not want to run 4 injectors.

I might weld in a bung for the injector in the elbow and it does not work as planed adding them to just below the carbs would not be difficult......

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: zarfnober ()
Date: September 18, 2019 05:10AM

Hey Tom, your work looks great. I used a high pressure water injection, and put the nozzle in the outlet of the turbo, worked great and dramatically lowered charge temps, after hard runs , even the turbo was cooler, you could touch the compressor housing without burning your hand, and the crossover was only warm. I wouldn’t put the jets in the head, way too much heat there. If you were to use 2 jets, I’d just put one on each side over the primary carbs, you’re gonna get boost on the primaries without opening the secondaries. Depending on the injection setup you’re using, some are boost controllable to proportionally increase water with boost. Have fun!

Rocco

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 18, 2019 05:57AM

I found also some good info on pre turbo injection using staged injection, small nozzle pre turbo to increase air density and then pre carb.

Quote
1. Pre-Turbocharger/Centrifugal Injection By placing the nozzle or nozzles pre-turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger and injecting a fine precise amount of water/methanol into the air inlet of the compressor, can have a dramatic positive effect on compressor efficiency (particularly with turbocharger systems and high boost centrifugal applications) while substantially lowering discharge temperatures at the source of compression.

On 8-25 psi applications, users can expect to see a 70-160+ degree drop in compressor discharge temperatures. While reductions of 160-240+degree's can be had on 25-60+ psi high boost applications such as diesels. How is this possible? When water methanol is first injected, we're able to begin slightly cooling the incoming air entering the compressor. This air is already relatively cool in relation to the ambient temperature of the day as it has yet to be compressed and heated. Depending on the temperature of the day and how the air inlet is plumped and where the air is being drawn in from, the incoming air entering into the inlet of the compressor commonly ranges between 5-20 degree's above ambient. Only minor cooling of the air charge occurs at this stage before it enters into the compressor. More importantly, we are about to dramatically cool the air that is being compressed and heated within the turbocharger.

It's important to understand it is here that the heat is being generated. A turbochargers impeller can spin at an astonishing speed between 100,000- 150,000 rpms. While centrifugal supercharger impellers spin between 40,000-65,000+ rpm. Between each pair of blades on an impeller exists a wedge shaped open space which the air fills in. As the impeller is spinning, this wedge shaped air pocket is subjected to tremendous centrifugal forces and is forced outward away from the center of the impeller to the outer edges. It is here where the air begins to stack up and compress against the compressor housing forming the heat as it makes it way into the scroll. As the compressed air heats up, it try's to further expand, making it now more difficult for the heated compressed air to pass through and exit the compressor thereby lowering the compressor efficiency. In addition, this compressed air is taking up more space within the compressor limiting new incoming air from being processed.

Furthermore, the hot compressed air exiting the turbocharger is less dense as it has been heated significantly. Therefore, containing less power producing oxygen while making the engine considerably more prone to detonation. By cooling the air as it's being compressed within the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger, the compressed air is now substantially cooler, more dense, taking less space and moves more efficiently through the compressor allowing us to pack and process more air through the turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger. This leads us to our second benefit. Improved compressor efficiency. All of this results in improved compressor efficiency. Because of this improved efficiency the compressor does not have to work as hard to produce the same amount of boost as without the water methanol injection.

In turn it raises the maximum mass air flow of the compressor. Thereby, making a smaller turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger now perform like a larger turbocharger or centrifugal supercharger with the addition of the water methanol injection. Lastly, as already mentioned above, pre-compressor injection substantially lowers the discharge temperatures exiting the compressor. The engine is now less prone to detonation through this reduction in air charge temperatures.

Furthermore, the use of an intercooler is dramatically reduced and in some applications no longer needed as it may not offer substantial further cooling effects in return for the pressure drop caused by it. Removal of the intercooler could now offer a further increase in boost pressure at the engine as well as compressor efficiency. While all of this sounds very exciting. To do this properly requires proper sizing of the nozzles in relation to the compressor size and output.

Additionally, the type fluid being used also effects the size of the nozzle selected. When done properly, very little of the water methanol mist injected into the inlet of the compressor survives the process. Thereby, discharging a much cooler air charge with a relativity high humidity with very little or no water methanol droplets present.


-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2019 05:59AM by toms73novass.

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: toms73novass ()
Date: September 18, 2019 06:13AM

ooph, that did not paste cleanly at all....

-Tom


63' Monza Spyder Convertable (in process) MY Build Thread
65' Monza MY Build Thread
73' NovaSS 454 Big block (Sold)
86' BMW 325es
98' VW Jetta TDI, for daughter
01' Audi Allroad Stage 3 twin turbo

NFCC
Grand Island, NY

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: September 18, 2019 06:56AM

It's fine. Great info!

MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Down the rabbit hole, blow through turbo 140 build smoking smiley
Date: September 18, 2019 07:44AM

Tom you don't want to inter-cool that beast? Something top mount would be perfect there imo.

1961 Corvair 700 Sedan - 3sp - Gasoline Heat - Lowered a bit - Rust in Progress
I live my life 19.5 seconds at a time.


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Current Page: 8 of 9


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