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Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: JohnVan ()
Date: December 02, 2018 11:15PM

I've got the 140 back together. I did a re-seal job with new pushrod tube o-rings, new rocker stud o-rings, new pan gasket, new top cover gasket etc. While I was at it, I installed all new lifters.

Now, I set the rocker arms statically per instructions I got from Clarks. Basically you set the engine to #1 TDC and adjust certain valves so that they just take up the slack then turn in an additional 3/4 (or something like that). Then crank over 180 degrees and set the other valves.

I also installed four newly rebuilt carbs from Wolf. I had a little trouble with the primaries flooding with the Clark's electric pump, and problems with one accelerator pump not spraying. In all fairness this might have been due to some small filings in the new fuel lines I didn't know about. At any rate the primaries fill and the float is working, and I got the accelerator pumps working again. It was a matter of opening up the carbs and blowing out the needle/seat. On one carb the float seemed suspeciously set low. Its suppossed to hang down something like 1.5 inches from the bottom of the gasket to the bottom of the float, but it actually sat much lower.

Now I fire up the 140. It understandably is a little hesitant to start, but eventually it fires but it stumbles alot. I have to nurse the throttle a bit before it will idle.

The first problem is that there is so much valve tapping that I can't adjust the valves with the engine running.

I try backing off a valve and *sometimes* I think I can hear a bit more tapping. I let it set for 10 seconds and then try to slowly tighten until there is no more tapping, but I honestly can't tell where that point is. I listen for a stumble while I tighten the valve but I can't tell if it's happening. A couple of times I loosened a valve and the engine ran better. The 1/3 cut-away valve cover does not prevent oil from squirting around. I got quite a pool of oil on the ground.

I've watched a couple videos of people setting the valves, but their engines aren't making as much noise as mine. Mine sounds like a bunch of sewing machines.

I eventually shut down the engine but when I restarted it I could not keep it running long enough for me to get from the drivers seat back to the engine to nurse the throttle. There is a lot of spitting back through the carbs.

I was able to verify that the ignition timing seems to be okay. Its sitting around TDC, just a little advanced at idle(ish).

    [*] At this point I think I need to reset the valves back to static because I've got the left bank all screwed up.
    [*] I did install new points, cap and rotor but did not disturb the distributor so I don't think the problem is ignition timing.
    [*] When I first got the car I did start it up briefly and did not have all this valve noise. There was one tappet making a lot of noise but otherwise the engine ran reasonable smoothly and quiet. There were lots of oil leaks...
    [*] I'm hoping that the rough running and popping back through the carbs is due to grossly adjusted valves, however at this point I don't trust the carbs.
    [*] When I manually close the choke for the left primary carb the engine seems to run better, even though it's been warmed up for several minutes.
    [*] I have the throttles for the secondaries disconnected to eliminate variables. The secondaries are closed.
    [*] All vacuum points are sealed so I don't think its a vac leak. The vac gauge on the dash shows negative slightly when running.
    [*] All cylinders have ignition. I tried the timing light on all six to help eliminate ignition related misfires. New spark plug wires.

I can see the valves operating but I'm not sure if perhaps I needed to start at static and then tighten first? If the valves are set at static should the engine run reasonably well or can I expect it to run very poorly with a lot of ticking?

I'm running 35-40 lbs of oil pressure at idle. Is it possible to have good oil pressure but not enough oil in the engine to operate the valve lifters properly?

I probably should verify the cam/harmonic balancer are in sync by watching the #1 valves while I rotate the engine to make sure TDC on the harmonic balancer is really TDC. I have to think they are okay because the engine did run much smoother and better before I changes the lifters and carbs.

Any suggestions are VERY welcome. I'm kinda frustrated at the moment...

Thanks,
John

John Van Valkenburgh
Knightdale NC
'65 Corsa 140

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: December 02, 2018 11:24PM

Well, you say that you installed new lifters.
Most guys seem to recommend that you prime the oil system before trying to start it.
You do that by pulling the distributor and driving the pump without the engine running.
It is also suggested that you manually rotate the engine a few times while doing this.
It will fill the lifters with oil before you even go into trying to adjust the valves.
Which should make this whole thing a bit more quite for you.

Funny, half the guys here swear by static valve adjustment, and the other half do a running valve adjustment.
I have always done the running adjustment on all my chevys.

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 A/C Moredoor Monza - 140 4-spd. driver



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2018 11:27PM by American Mel.

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 02, 2018 11:34PM

John you have a lot of problems.. Quiet at first and then noisy is not good! But nothing you did should cause that other than you may not have had the pushrod in the lifters dimple pocket... then they slipped in!

1 Use your index FINGER on the TOP of the rocker you are adjusting... if you feel a sharp jolt... loose Smooth... 0 lash or less... back it off until you feel the jolt.

We don't allow bashing of Vendors here... but most would be far better off buying Carbs from Corvair Underground!

to verify the Harmonic DAMPENER just look for the match marks while engine is off... same place as the TDC timing mark...

And timing 140 hp 16 degrees BTDC... no less..

White painted marks .... what you are looking for [ unpainted! ]







MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: JohnVan ()
Date: December 02, 2018 11:48PM

Matt,

The trick of feeling the lifter while it's running is brilliant, thanks.

The engine was reasonably quiet originally before I replaced the lifters, so I'm hoping all this noise is a simple adjustment.

In regards to the carbs, the problems could be my own doing. I filed the fuel line ends flat before I did the inverse flare. I could have introduced some metal filings into the pipe. I may go back to the original primaries to see if that helps with the spitting problem. I need to eliminate variables here so I can concentrate on one issue at a time.

Thanks for the tip!
John

John Van Valkenburgh
Knightdale NC
'65 Corsa 140

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: texas yenko dude ()
Date: December 03, 2018 06:46AM

Why did you replace the lifters? That's a real no-no to put new lifters on an old used cam unless you absolutely have to.

Texas YENKO Dude
YS-070
YS-199
YS-320
Southeast of Disorder


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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: Spectre ()
Date: December 03, 2018 07:00AM

You said you turned the engine 180 degrees for the second half of the valves. It needs to be 360 degrees (cam will rotate 180 for every 360 of crank rotation).

David Clamp


1965 Corsa convertible - 140 4spd/3.55/AM-FM

2013 Mustang GT convertible - 5.0, 6spd auto, Procharger i-1

2003 Miata SE - 6spd manual (wife's toy)

"Victory is mine!" - SG

Norman, OK

Click for Norman, Oklahoma Forecast

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: tboltkc ()
Date: December 03, 2018 07:16AM

How long did you let it run? Might take some time for the lifters to pump up. So it could quiet down after a bit.

It can be difficult to tell 0 lash when they are not full of oil because they are softer without the hydraulic pressure.

Hopefully they are full of oil now and when you re adjust them statically it will run better.

-Travis


'65 Corsa; '63 Convertible; '62 Wagon; '65 4 Door
Heart of America Corvair Owners Assocation (Kansas City, MO)

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: December 03, 2018 07:23AM

I also am curious why you would replace the lifters, that is typically not a good idea.

To adj valves cold:

remove dist cap
turn engine until rotor points at #1 contact of cap (hold cap near rotor to check)
both #1 valves are now closed. Remove loose feel from rocker then 1/2 turn tight
do both rockers on #1
turn engine CCW until rotor points at #4 (next in firing order 1-4-5-2-3-6)
do both rockers as above then turn eng to #5 and again.

When you arrive at #2 the rotor will be pointing exact opposite point on dist from when you started on #1. One other easy check is when you started on #1 you can see timing mark on pulley at zero and same on #2.

When you do #6 you are finished of course. I have been adjusting rocker pre-load cold since I started working on the cars. The engines coming down the assembly line were adjusted cold too.

You should be able to find these instructions here in a 'search'. Ken Hand (vairmech) and I have written about this several times.



Now in your case with new/empty lifters then yes you will hear rocker arms clack until oil fills the lifters. A short gentle drive down the street helps many times with getting oil up to temp and getting the lifters rotating OR just hold rpm in the 2000 range for a few minutes. It is generally accepted that new lifters against lobes with wear is not good, I hope you are lucky with yours.

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: steve c goodman ()
Date: December 03, 2018 07:48AM

I should add that some lifters need only 1/4 turn pre-load while others need 3/4 turn. Using 1/2 turn will at least get you close and you can readjust after lifters fill and you put a few miles on the engine. good luck

best wishes, Steve
Rear Engine Spec. Inc. Golden, Colo.

1962 spyder 3.0L turbo---1965 Crown V8
1967 monza 110/4---1968 monza 110/4
1971 amante gt 110/4
CORSA/RMC/PPCC

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: Timothy Shortle ()
Date: December 03, 2018 08:19AM

I hope you have better luck than many of us have had with your W carbs. Are your venturi clusters held in with screws?

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: cnicol ()
Date: December 03, 2018 09:38AM

One quick way to find "way-off" rocker-arm adjustment is to look at the number of exposed threads on the rocker stud.

Typically 2-3 threads are exposed above the rocker arm nut and they're the same on every valve. (This assumes the rocker arm nuts are all the same style)

Craig N. Coeur d'Alene ID.
66 Black Monza 4dr, 4.2L V8 49k
61 Seamist Jade Rampside 140 PG
60 Monza coupe (sold, sniff sniff)
66 Sprint Corsa convt - First car! Re-purchased 43 years later
2+2 gnatsuM 5691

+17 Tons of parts

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: Frank DuVal ()
Date: December 03, 2018 09:47AM

Quote
John
I did install new points, cap and rotor but did not disturb the distributor so I don't think the problem is ignition timing.

Rookie mistake. Changing the point gap will change ignition timing. Not a whole lot, but it will, as the actual opening of the points is where the spark happens. SO if the gap is wider than before, the timing will be sooner, or advanced. If the gap is smaller, the timing will be retarded.

This is also why one sets the timing after setting the point gap.

But, I do not think this is where you need to start worrying, it is valve adjustment first.

Quote
John
All vacuum points are sealed so I don't think its a vac leak. The vac gauge on the dash shows negative slightly when running.

Should be about 20", not slightly negative. Again, probably caused by incorrect valve adjustment.

More info: do one thing at a time, doing several things at once leads to multiple sources of possible failure and you run around in circles trying things. Tune up first, then more intrusive repair. Then after the intrusive repair, you know not to go back and do the tune up, as that was verified earlier.

More pile on: Yes, not a good idea to change out perfectly good working valve lifters. Waste of time and money. Plus the chance of getting bad lifters in there. Much discussion over the years of which lifters work in Corvair engines and supply proper oil to rockers. The original GM lifters did the job well. ALso now the new lifters will wear in the old camshaft. Sure, it usually works out OK, but service life of the cam is reduced.

Quote
John
The 1/3 cut-away valve cover does not prevent oil from squirting around. I got quite a pool of oil on the ground.

How true! I refer to adjusting valves hot as my Hot Oil Treatments!eye popping smiley And a lot of times the 1/3 covers were not handy, so..... but oil was only a dollar a quart then.....

Start over with a new static valve adjustment. Follow Steve's advice. Do a "Search" for Ken's advice also - vairmech as author.

Static works great with new parts. Running adjustment I used when looking for a problem:

How much oil is getting to the rockers
Where is that dang click coming from
Where are all these clicks coming from after an o-ring job on a very used engine
grinning smiley

Frank DuVal

Fredericksburg, VA

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: cyclemikey ()
Date: December 03, 2018 11:10AM

I'm really pleased to see that John has gotten some very good advice here. I've been on lots of forums (fora?) where some of the advice given is worse than the original problem.

As has already been pointed out, John, it's very likely from the symptoms you describe that you've got the valve adjustment wrong. No matter what car (or motorcycle) I'm working on, I always do as Steve described and go around the firing order, adjusting each cylinder's valves when they're at TDC together. Shortcut methods almost invariably lead to mistakes. And for hydraulic lifters, zero-lash plus 1/2 turn, static and cold, is close enough for all but fine adjustment, and certainly good enough for startup.

It's also a very good idea to work on one system at a time unless you have very good troubleshooting skills. Whether in science, mathematics, or auto repair, whenever you have more than one variable, the task becomes an order of magnitude harder to sort out.

If I were you, since you've replaced lifters on a used cam, I'd strongly consider using a full synthetic oil, and a ZDDP additive. Just my opinion, not trying to start an oil thread. Good luck, you'll get it sorted out.



Mikey
on the mighty Millicoma in
Coos Bay, Oregon


'64 Monza coupe
waaay too much other stuff to list

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: JohnVan ()
Date: December 03, 2018 05:19PM

Thanks for all the advice.

I misspoke when I said that I only turned the engine 180 degrees to set the second set of valves. I turned the crank 360 degrees, which turns the distributor 180. I was following the distributor to know when I was coming up on TDC for #1.

I can see everyone's point regarding installing new lifters with an older cam. To my credit there were no signs of wear on the cam-side of the old lifters so I'm thinking the cam does not have a lot of wear. I knew I had at least one old lifter tapping loudly. I don't know much about the history of this engine except that the compression looked reasonably good on all 6, I could still see signs of crosshatching on the cylinders when I used an inspection camera. Other things about the car made me suspect that one of the previous owners was doing some short-cutting. In the end putting in new lifters to replace some that were potentially 53 years old seemed like a good idea at the time for overall reliability. In hindsight I probably would have left in the old lifters, but then again some of them had a lot of varnish on the sides...

I do plan on using synthetic in the engine. That is one of the reasons for sealing everything up, that and the fact that it was leaking a lot of oil (again suspect a previous owner did not bother with such details and did not use the heater). For now I'm starting out with Castrol GTX just until everything is running reasonably well.

I hate doing multiple things to an engine at once just to avoid this kind of situation, but being that the timing light says that I'm reasonably close, I think getting the valves set right will be the next logical step before I look at the "new" carbs. I suspect that at least one of the primary carbs isn't flowing correctly being that it runs much better with the choke applied on that side.

One reason for doing multiple things is that I'm in a bit of a self imposed time crunch. I've got my father's 1987 S-10 in which I installed a rebuilt engine last year. I want to give it to my nephew who is around 16 so he can have his Grandfather's truck, but first I needed to have the 'vair road worthy. I don't have a shop so I'm working outdoors on the weekends so I had to shotgun some things since I could only get parts delivered once a week (order on Monday and they come Thursday or Friday). Ideally I'd like to give it to him for Christmas.

Overall I've done lots of things to get the Corsa in a reliable state.
    [*] New gas tank. The old one was really nasty...
    [*] New Clarks electric fuel pump.
    [*] Flushed the solid fuel line, all new rubber parts and sender.
    [*] New stainless steel brake lines. New flex lines.
    [*] New brake drums, all new brake parts including wheel cylinders.
    [*] New master cylinder.
    [*] Replaced all the heating hoses with new rubber ones from Clarks. New heater control cable.
    [*] Rebuilt the shifter linkage with new Clarks bronze bushings. The shifter used to move like it was stuffed with old grease. Turns out that a previous owner used tape wrapped around the shifter rod instead of using bushings.
    [*] Drained and refilled the transmission.
    [*] New spark plugs, wires, cap, rotor, condenser. 7mm silicone wires from Clarks.
    [*] New large diameter copper battery cables. New chassis ground wire and 12V accessory wire.
    [*] 4 newly rebuilt carbs. Should have new bushings and shafts and ethanol proof rubber parts.
    [*] New pushrod tube seals, new rocker stud seals, new pan gasket, new valve cover gaskets, new top cover gasket.
    [*] Flushed out the oil cooler and installed new seals.
    [*] New blower bearing.

The interior is mostly out of it, but I can do that one piece at a time on the weekends while driving it. I do have a backup pickup truck, but it's 24 years old and so I don't rely on it exclusively. I suppose there is the Harley for backup but man it gets COLD at night riding that thing. I could in a pinch drive my 1981 International dump truck but it's not what we would call fuel efficient. Last, and least I could ride my old horse Jack, but he's 26 and no longer enthusiastic about my riding him.

I'll start over with the static valve settings and try again.

Thanks again for the advice!

John

John Van Valkenburgh
Knightdale NC
'65 Corsa 140

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 03, 2018 05:22PM

Bet the oil cooler seals are leaking... or missing!! Easy to do..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: JohnVan ()
Date: December 03, 2018 06:13PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bet the oil cooler seals are leaking... or
> missing!! Easy to do..

Thanks Matt. Got that covered. Removed the cooler, flushed it out and re-installed with new seals. The old seals looked pretty tired. Many of the pushrod tube O-Rings were hard and cracked, while others were like new. Again I suspect that a previous owner cheaped out and only replaced o-rings on the tubes he though were leaking at the time. Another reason I suspect this is that most of the tubes were relatively clean on the outside but a few had like an inch of gunk on them.

BTW, all the pushrods were clear. I blew air through all of them. When running there is LOTS of oil shooting all over the rockers.

I hope to not have to reseal the engine for awhile, and besides I like the idea of having heat that does not contain oil mist smiling smiley

John Van Valkenburgh
Knightdale NC
'65 Corsa 140

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 03, 2018 06:55PM

What area of the bottom 0of the engine is the oil leaking from?





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: JohnVan ()
Date: December 03, 2018 08:09PM

MattNall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What area of the bottom 0of the engine is the oil
> leaking from?

It was leaking oil from the valve covers and pushrod tubes. The o-rings and gaskets are now all new and so far no leaks.

I'm using the 1/3 valve cover to adjust the valves so lots of oil flowing around the rockers with occasional little geysers coming from the push rods while the engine is running. I think the geysers are shooting out the side hole in the pushrod as they come and go depending on the rotation of the pushrod. All normal, just messy with the 1/3 cover installed.

I think the engine will now be oil tight once I get the valves adjusted and the properly install the valve covers with new gaskets and a little #2 permatex.

In the mean time, it gives a new meaning to the term "oil bath" when I'm trying to make adjustments while the engine is running. Still the 1/3 cover is certainly a lot better than no cover at all smiling smiley

John Van Valkenburgh
Knightdale NC
'65 Corsa 140

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: ensys ()
Date: December 03, 2018 08:58PM

Well, well; a chance to gain significant enlightenment, and all it costs is exposing more of my ignorance. Nothing's free...

So, I wonder if several someones will explain why it's a bad idea to use new lifters on an old cam. Isn't this situation common when messing with old cars and limited parts?

What are the potential consequences of doing so.

Finally, is there some rule-of-thumb that says "new lifters, new cam" and vice versa?

Thanks.

Keep 'em flying...

S.J.Szabo

From America's
Automobile Heartland

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Re: Not a great start. Need some advice!
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: December 03, 2018 09:20PM

Just rule of thumb...several have reported flat lobes after changing just lifters.... but what was the REAL problem before?...

At 80 lb. opening pressure.... how much damage can be done?

I've never worried about it and never developed a flat cam..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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