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Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: JohnVan ()
Date: November 06, 2018 06:10PM

One thing that has impressed me after taking off the tunnel covers is that these cars are very "linkage intensive". There are a lot of linkages and various bends. I've got a new bushing kit on the way to help remove the slack in the throttle linkage.

This got me wondering. Has anyone tried retrofitting a hydraulic clutch Master and Slave cylinder in place of the clutch cable and linkage? I'm not sure how much throw the clutch actuating rod will need, but it can't be all that different from most other cars.

While I really hate hydraulic systems and especially trying to bleed clutch systems, once they are operational, they really are pretty much simple and effective.

If you look at summitracing.com there are lots of options.

I'm still thinking about the throttle linkage. I keep coming back to using servos, but I'm not fond of the "fly by wire" idea.

...just stuff I ponder when drifting off to sleep...

John

John Van Valkenburgh
Knightdale NC
'65 Corsa 140

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 06, 2018 06:23PM

>
> ...just stuff I ponder when drifting off to
> sleep...
>
> John


My son's Fiero had a hydraulic clutch that was designed by GM engineers. What a total PITA. Pondering that thing kept me from drifting off to sleep.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: American Mel ()
Date: November 06, 2018 06:26PM

Some of it may seem Rube Goldbergish, but I REALLY like know that I am the one running my car!
It is so simple that most things can be fixed by the side of the road if needed, and NO ONE is ever going to "Hack" a stock Corvair while you are driving down the road.
My Moredoor is such a Blast to drive! smiling bouncing smiley
While I should not be using it just yet, I can not resist!
I was just thinking to myself on the way home from work the other day, . . . . "This thing is like driving a street legal GO-KART!
Except, with 3/4 of the lights not working, or installed right now it really ain't street legal. eye popping smiley
Well, it is only 1 mile to work on a unused back-road. eye rolling smiley

.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
WA. state, 1 mile south of the Canadian border,
I am not at the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
'66 Monza Coupe - 4spd, 140 Daily driver beater
'67 Monza Vert. - PG, 140 Daily driver beater

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 06, 2018 06:51PM

Several have done it... it's your car.... make it feel great!





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: oldqmguy ()
Date: November 06, 2018 10:05PM

Has anyone ever tried the "Hydraulic Throw-Out Bearing" approach?

This is a Throw-Out Bearing with the Hydraulics 'inside' meaning you don't have a cylinder moving a throw out arm that moved the bearing. The 'arm' is replaced by a hydraulic hose that activates the bearing to open the clutch!

These are available and I was thinking about doing that to my last stick-shift Corsa. That was about 10 years ago. I am happy driving my PG More-Door Monza today, but was wondering if anyone had every tried this. It seems to be the 'best approach' to eliminating the clutch cable arrangement.

There seems to be many moving parts in the "tunnel!"

Dale cool smiley

Dale E. Smiley CPBE
Life Member The Society of Broadcast Engineers
RETIRED Broadcast Engineer
CERTIFIED CORVAIR NUT
CORSA/Circle City Corvairs/Corvair Performance Group
Avon, Indiana
WB9SFF
1967 4-Door Monza PG!

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 06, 2018 10:40PM

It's been done... but you have to FAB something to keep it from rotating.... no bolts on the diff. face!!

I THINK most drilled and tapped the case..





MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: BobV66Vair ()
Date: November 07, 2018 05:57AM

Nate Wolf has a hydraulic clutch on his Corsa. He gave me all the spec's for my race car to use one. He is a good resource if you want to ask him.

Bob Vinnacombe
Sandy, Oregon
1965 Corsa 140 stock
1966 Monza Soon to be race car
1968 Monza Parts for now

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: November 07, 2018 07:42AM

How do you bleed the hydraulic bearing?

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 07, 2018 07:56AM

joelsplace Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How do you bleed the hydraulic bearing?


Before you mate the engine to trans or like this! $12.95 free ship

[www.ebay.com]









MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2018 11:12AM by MattNall.

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: Vairefast ()
Date: November 07, 2018 09:55AM

I have A Hyd t/o bearing in my v8. Mcleod. Its a love hate kinda thing. For my car I used a dual disc clutch to get the high performance hold for lots of Hp, very little pedal pressure. Feels like a new Honda, very easy on the knee and leg at stop lights and traffic.

The good:

very soft pedal feel, which a stock corvair already has.

No more cable ends or pulley issues.

McLeod and some aftermarket don't need to bolt down, crazy I know but it works.

pressure and bleed lines exit the bellhousing for access.

when it works it basically problem free.

The Bad:

Most performance ones are very expensive mine was $500.00 back when i did it. you can buy a lot of clutch cables for that. I think it's about $400.00 from summit racing now. Then you have to get a master cylinder ( the right size, I bought 3 to get it right) and all the hyd line etc.

Mounting the master cylinder. It's got to go somewhere and you will most likely be cutting holes in your car to do it.

The biggest problem I have ran into has no real fix. They leak if you don't drive the car or at least step on the pedal every few weeks. I talked to McLeod at the Sema show and they said "just drive the car more, sorry."

Bleeding it on the road if it fails, which it did once 300 miles from home at a car show at midnight was no fun. I got it working but man was I pissed.

If it every truly fails. You have to pull the motor to get to it. Mid engine isn't a fun job.

I haven't tried other manufactures or even GM OE ones like Fiero or Camaro/Firebird ones. Others might have had better luck with sitting and leaking issues.

My 2c: On a stock corvair I wouldn't bother. They worked for 50+ years if lubed and adjusted properly. On a race car I'd do it, chances of it failing like a clutch cable are way less while it's in use and you can custom tailor the pedal feel to your liking.

Darrin
65 Crown
68 Monza convert

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: Timothy Shortle ()
Date: November 07, 2018 11:46AM

We have seen a lot of problems with that "fly by wire" electronic throttle modules. We almost never had problems when cars only used cables and linkage.

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: MattNall ()
Date: November 07, 2018 11:55AM

Timothy We are talking Hydraulics here...

Hydraulic throttle







MODERATOR
Sea Mountain, between Charleston Harbor and Coos Bay! SW Oregon Coast
Click HERE for My Website...Click HERE for My TechPages!
..............................110-PG.................................................Webered-Turbo




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2018 11:56AM by MattNall.

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: November 07, 2018 11:58AM

One thing I wouldn't have thought of until going from a cable to hydraulic - the same friction in the cable that makes it harder to push in also helps you keep it held down. I noticed this on a street bike with a stout clutch. You might never notice on a car.

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: joelsplace ()
Date: November 07, 2018 12:02PM

Matt, I have that system on my digger so you can operate the throttle from the rear. It always has to be bled to get it working if it sits long. I rebuilt it recently hoping that would fix it. No luck. Besides sitting I've had issues with hydraulic clutches sucking air into them in cold weather. Had an FZR1000 that would suck air and quit working if the temps got down much below freezing.

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: Brizo ()
Date: November 07, 2018 01:41PM

There are plenty of Corvette and Camaro owners around with leaking master and slave cylinders and slowly sinking clutch pedals that don't think hydraulic clutches are so great. Most Corvair clutch systems went 30 or 40 years with out problems. A hydraulic clutch would just be a different potential problem.

Dan Brizendine,
'64 8door Greenbrier 140 PG. "In beautiful Wanamaker Indiana...with one stop light and 5 pizza shops"

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: 63turbo ()
Date: November 07, 2018 06:37PM

I've converted to hydraulic and I wont go back. The actuation force is way lower than the cable set-up, and is lighter than the stock set-up. It is simple
to bleed a hydraulic set-up with a pull slave or push slave as they are out in the open where they can be reached. The easy way I found to do this is get a clean metal "oiler can" from a FLAPS (mine cost roughly $5.00), and fill it withclean new brake fluid, connect clear hose from the oiler nozzle to the bleederon the slave and begin pumping the oiler, pressure bleeding the system fromthe slave. Keep this up until the master is full with no foam present and you are done. Cheapest and most effective pressure bleeder I've ever seen and used.
Its a bit odd to sing the praises of cable actuation for the clutch especially
since many of us have been snapping re-pop cables every 6000 miles. If this is
such a good deal, why wouldn't you convert to cable actuation on the brakes, just to get rid of the hassles of bleeding the system. I wouldn't have done what I did if the repro cables lasted anywhere near as long as the stock ones,
but after I did it, the actuation differences are so much improved I'm really
glad I did it. It was relatively inexpensive to do it also... the master and slave cost less than 150.00, approximately 4 cables worth. Given how much I drive my car, and how long the repro cables last, I've basically broke even on
this conversion already!
For an early, the best master and slave size relationship is 1:1, for a late a 3/4" master and 7/8" works well, the difference has to do with where the
convenient mounting spots for the master on an early and late. Nate Wolf did a excellent write up on how he did this conversion on a late, I covered this conversion in my early all though not nearly as well written and organized as
Nates write-up.

------------------------------------

Kevin Nash
Friday Harbor Washington
63 Spyder, Daily driver, EFI read about my project here: [corvaircenter.com]
first test start on EFI here:[www.youtube.com]
first official EFI boost test here:[www.youtube.com]
My new fan! [corvaircenter.com]
engine less 62 Spyder
Canadian 64 Monza Parts car



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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: monza67 ()
Date: November 07, 2018 09:23PM

I have hydraulic clutches on both of my Corvair dune buggys. They both have the Wilwood master and slave cylinders. It's a little simpler for the buggies, since I have custom fabricated pedal assemblies, but I've seen it done on cars. To install the slave cylinder, I shorten the clutch actuating rod, weld a fitting to it to screw the cylinder rod to and attach a plate to the transmission crossmember to attach the other end of the cylinder to. Works great.
Chuck P.

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: 66vairman ()
Date: November 08, 2018 09:47AM

Brizo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are plenty of Corvette and Camaro owners
> around with leaking master and slave cylinders and
> slowly sinking clutch pedals that don't think
> hydraulic clutches are so great. Most Corvair
> clutch systems went 30 or 40 years with out
> problems. A hydraulic clutch would just be a
> different potential problem.

A good statement Brizo. One advantage of the original Corvair system is it tolerates sitting for long periods (Winter storage) better than a hydraulic system. Once I went through my LM clutch system, replaced worn parts and lubricated it, I haven't had any problems. When Roger Parent gets his clutch cables working that should correct the main issue of broken cables.

That said if you really want a hydraulic system then try it, but I know from experience they have there own set of problems.

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: thewolfe ()
Date: November 08, 2018 10:00AM

The reason I went hydraulic is because I installed a pressure plate with a higher clamping force than stock and was worried about the cable system wearing and breaking prematurely. After reinforcing several areas in the car that flex, giving a mushy pedal feel, the only issue I have had was because of a misalignment with the slave and clutch fork which caused an o ring to start leaking within the first thousand miles or so. After correcting that I have had no problems. 3 winters of not driving the car has had no effect on anything. While hydraulic may not be for everyone, I wouldn't try to scare anyone away from it. My clutch works and feels great and I won't be going back.

Nate Wolfe
Portland OR
65 Corsa 180




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2018 10:02AM by thewolfe.

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Re: Hydraulic Clutch
Posted by: jjohnsonjo ()
Date: November 08, 2018 02:14PM

I few years ago I was riding with friends. A great day and a great ride until we hit a major traffic jam. Two of the guys had Suzuki Boulevard's. As we sat in the heat, Pete's clutch started acting up and eventually he had no clutch at all. We pulled over to see what was up. The hydraulic clutch slave was mounted very close to the exhaust. We sat for an hour and it started working again. Googled it when we got home and its a known issue. The next day we bled the system, nasty dark stuff, obviously water contamination. Tom went home and bled his as well. Never had the issue again, just change the juice every two years.

J.O.

65 Corsa Turbo Vert
79 Honda XL 500S
69 Honda CL 160 D
2010 BMW F 650 GS
2003 Bounder 36D
2013 KIA Optima SX turbo-AKA ZIPPY (wife,s car)
69 Newport Holiday Sailboat
Baja 150 dune buggy cart
Coleman HS 500 UTV
2016 KIA Sorento SXL Turbo

Bethlehem,Pa

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

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